Ignoring verbal and physical aids on lunge line

[TinFoilHat]

Hey guys.

I’m dealing with a unique issue that I haven’t experienced before. I’ve already gushed on various other threads (I think) about how chill and cool my lease horse (M) is. However, this is one area where being chill has gotten annoying.

M completely ignores any verbal or physical aids to increase velocity or speed. Verbal aids include smooching, clicking, clicking, clapping, etc. Physical aid is lunge whip, moving toward him, jiggling rope, touching him with whip. For the lunge whip, he does not care if the whip pops, approaches him or even touches him. It’s so bad that he will not even lift his head from trying to get nibbles of grass outside of the round pen.

This behavior is consistent to how he is under saddle as well, however, I recently bought some tiny tiny spurs which has helped a LOT with keeping him forward. Vet has been out within the past 2 weeks and he is sound and all is well, farrier comes out tomorrow for routine work, no pain identified - but he’s also apparently always been lazy like this.

ETA: my previous mare I owned (+ plus leases prior) was not as lackadaisical as M is on the lunge line so I just haven’t experienced this specific issue.

[Scribbler]

There is lazy, there is low energy, there is in pain, and there is simply ignoring the handlers.

My first question: why are you longeing? Clearly not to work out the zoomies. Do you need to longe to warm him up?

My second question: what do you and other people do with him for basic ground manners and ground work? Can your trainer longe him? How good are you at longeing generally?

If he is pulling away from you and grazing while longeing then the whole game has fallen apart. Horse needs some back to basics probably starting with work on a 12 foot lead rope or sessions in a round pen

A horse shuffling around in a poopy jog trot and flat canter on the forehand is one thing. That’s lazy or low energy. A horse pulling away to graze is in the same category as a horse that’s learned to bolt out of the longe circle. They have learned they don’t need to listen to the person. You don’t fix it by repeating the same bad sessiin

I expect I could fix your horse, but I actually have pretty good luck with ground work. But I am not sure that you as (I assume) a junior ammie beginner type, should have to fix a lease horse. In any case take this question to your trainer and pay them for a lesson in longeing and ground work.

My own horse lies down and “smiles” if you try to longe her. I can longe her but I need to go in making it clear that the job today is longe and not cute clicker tricks.

[MapleBreeze]

Everything they said above me. Are there front shoes on? Also tbh i hate clucking…like on the lunge, what does it mean? Your horse is smarter than that, do you want a walk, trot, or canter? Be clear!

[OverandOnward]

First - Not using verbal word cues, such as ‘walk’, ‘trot’, etc.? Just imo the words make it easier.

Second - Ignoring? That is a default horse response that the handler permits, or the handler doesn’t permit.

If the horse is permitted to ignore signals, cues & aids, the horse will ignore them. That’s training just as much as training the horse to respond.

Horses do not instinctively know what we intend. We have to show them, teach them, what we intend.

Clucking and kissing mean nothing to a horse until we show them what we intend. If the horse is being allowed to not respond, then those cues mean nothing to the horse. That is what is being trained. If a different response is required by the human, consistently and several sessions per week, it takes only a couple of weeks to turn that around.

And this may get a reaction, but in my personal opinion there is no such thing as a ‘lazy’ horse. Only ‘lazy’ handlers and riders who aren’t requiring the performance they are cueing. ‘Lazy’ or ‘prompt’ is a result of training by humans - intentional or not. Horses don’t have the mind to form the intent. They are reactive and just respond to what is happening. If humans don’t require performance, the horse is unlikely to ante up when the human doesn’t.

[TinFoilHat]

@Scribbler

My first question: why are you longeing? Clearly not to work out the zoomies. Do you need to longe to warm him up?

M hasn’t been in consistent and continuous work in over a year. In the past I’ve seen good results on the longe line a couple of times a week in the beginning phases of reconditioning. By good results, I mean a smoother transition into good, balanced and effective movement with a rider.

@Scribbler

My second question: what do you and other people do with him for basic ground manners and ground work? Can your trainer longe him? How good are you at longeing generally

His ground manners are great for the most part. Very respectful of space, stands (and naps) in cross ties quietly despite chaos around him, stands quietly untied. We practice good, polite behaviors and for the most part he’s great. His “one thing” is that if he is in the midst of a nap or comfortable where he is, he requires a couple of taps on the shoulder with the lead rope to encourage him to saunter forward.

Trainer and his owner can and has and they have similar problems. His owner had previously let him lead the relationship and let him get away with a bit of silliness, so that is what I’m working on ground work wise.

I would call myself a good and self sufficient longer. I know what I’m looking for and I’ve been taught how to do it. But would I advertise and sell my services? Probably not haha

@Scribbler

sessions in a round pen

I lunge and do (ground) work with him in a round pen

@Scribbler

A horse pulling away to graze is in the same category as a horse that’s learned to bolt out of the longe circle. They have learned they don’t need to listen to the person.

Completely agree with you; see above for observation on previous owner’s interactions with him (spoiler: he’s worse for her)

@Scribbler

But I am not sure that you as (I assume) a junior ammie beginner type

That’s cute - definitely changing my name on TikTok to that (as long as falsely marketing myself as a junior isn’t breaking any laws)

@Scribbler

In any case take this question to your trainer and pay them for a lesson in longeing and ground work.

Trainer teaches me on her lesson horses, on M and then does training rides on M occasionally for specific items that I can point out, but don’t have the expertise necessary to correct them.

All of that is to say - I’m working on ground work independently and taking feedback from her as I get it.

[TinFoilHat]

@MapleBreeze

Are there front shoes on?

Yes

@MapleBreeze

Also tbh i hate clucking…like on the lunge, what does it mean? Your horse is smarter than that, do you want a walk, trot, or canter? Be clear!

He was never taught vocal commands. One of my goals is to teach him the commands so that this will hopefully become a nonissue

[TinFoilHat]

@OverandOnward

First - Not using verbal word cues, such as ‘walk’, ‘trot’, etc.? Just imo the words make it easier.

He was never taught verbal cues unfortunately. That was one of my goals and motivators to get him on the lunge line and do strategic exercises on it.

@OverandOnward

Second - Ignoring? That is a default horse response that the handler permits, or the handler doesn’t permit.

If the horse is permitted to ignore signals, cues & aids, the horse will ignore them. That’s training just as much as training the horse to respond.

I hear you - unfortunately he was taught by his owner that it is okay to decide he’s done when he wants so I’m attacking that in other areas currently from the ground.

@OverandOnward

And this may get a reaction, but in my personal opinion there is no such thing as a ‘lazy’ horse. Only ‘lazy’ handlers and riders who aren’t requiring the performance they are cueing. ‘Lazy’ or ‘prompt’ is a result of training by humans - intentional or not. Horses don’t have the mind to form the intent. They are reactive and just respond to what is happening. If humans don’t require performance, the horse is unlikely to ante up when the human doesn’t.

I do have to disagree with you on no such thing as a lazy horse, but as you stated, it’s a personal opinion. I have no science or data to come to you with other than my experiences ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I do agree with you though that lazy vs prompt is a result of human training. And I am actively working through it in other areas too so it truly goes across the board.

[Xanthoria]

@TinFoilHat

For the lunge whip, he does not care if the whip pops, approaches him or even touches him.

Right now he’s blowing you off in a very rude manner. If all physical issues are ruled out, you will need to sensitize him to the whip. That means making him understand it’s not an idle threat. This doesn’t take weeks to learn - horses can learn in 5 minutes that if they don’t hup-to they’ll get a sting they weren’t expecting.

However, since it sounds like you either didn’t know this or haven’t tried it, I recommend having a trainer show you how as timing, consistency and reward are everything. Speaking of which, if you don’t have an appetite for that type of negative operant conditioning, you could try clicker training the behavior you want instead.

[TinFoilHat]

@Scribbler

There is lazy, there is low energy, there is in pain, and there is simply ignoring the handlers.

Vet was out a week or two ago and he is sound per her assessment. Like I said above farrier is coming out this week as well for routine work but will also double check with him that we’re all good and then chiro is coming Friday for massage and Beemer therapy

[TinFoilHat]

@Xanthoria

However, since it sounds like you either didn’t know this or haven’t tried it, I recommend having a trainer show you how as timing, consistency and reward are everything.

I have used the whip physically, in what I thought was demanding in the most humane possible way but what
I’m gathering from your response (+ others) is that that’s not enough clearly.

I guess the answer to my question is easier than I anticipated - have a harsher hand ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[Xanthoria]

Right.

I went thru this as a past owner of sensitive TBs. They’d jump to it if you so much as looked sideways at them - everything was whisper quiet. Then hubby got a Friesian x… oh boy. That horse would take a thwack with a dressage whip that’d make a TB send you to the moon and just roll his eyes at you…

So: ask nicely, then if no response apply the aid at the volume needed to make the horse MOVE, NOW. You can turn the volume down later but to get their attention and make your point (without nagging and annoying them) make your point clearly. Not making the horse terrified, and never doing it in anger, just applying the aid so the answer is YES, MA’AM. Then let it go and carry on with life.

[TinFoilHat]

@Xanthoria

I went thru this as a past owner of sensitive TBs. They’d jump to it if you so much as looked sideways at them - everything was whisper quiet. Then hubby got a Friesian x… oh boy.

Yes my last mare was off the track and she was REALLY sensitive. Granted, she also knew verbal cues but when she got a wild hair and decide not to listen, I would just have to move the whip in her direction and it was fine again.

M is also off the track but he is just a whole different experience.

@Xanthoria

So: ask nicely, then if no response apply the aid at the volume needed to make the horse MOVE, NOW. You can turn the volume down later but to get their attention and make your point (without nagging and annoying them) make your point clearly. Not making the horse terrified, and never doing it in anger, just applying the aid so the answer is YES, MA’AM. Then let it go and carry on with life.

Solid. Love the point about not doing it in anger. I live by “end early and on a good note” instead of “keep going and destroy trust and/or confidence”

[Xanthoria]

Awesome - let us know how it works out! You got this.

[Scribbler]

Ok, it sounds like you are in a position with no intelligent adult help. I’m not clear why the coach can’t help you, but it’s true many perfectly fine riding instructors lack ground work training skills.

Apologies for thinking you are a junior. You sound now like a thoughtful adult, so I think learning basic ground skills at this stage is good.

I would stop longeing and do two things.

I would work on the ground to get him leading walk trot halt back in hand with fluency. I would carry a longe whip in my left hand to tap tap tap behind my back to get him to move. The aim is a horse that promptly moves off at your body cue and voice cue. Teach walk trottrot and whoa cues at the same time.

Then teach him to move his haunches over, turn on forehand, and shoulder in in hand with prompt response. Teach voice commands here, I like “side.” start with a finger in his ribs, proceed to light touch of whip and to just signalling with your posture.

Once you start this training you must reinforce it every second you handle him. No letting him lag behind or pull for grass.

Next, I would put him in the round pen with no longe rope, just loose. And I would get after him with a longe whip until he is going walllk trot-trot canTER and whoa transitions up and down on voice. In the process you will learn how to hold your body so that the horse continues to move or halts. You will learn how just the posture of your body is enough to signal continue moving, go faster, or slow down or halt. You will.develop your own mutual set of cues. You will learn how you can be inadvertently signalling whoa not go if you slouch or suck back or step back.

At first you may need many theatrics with the whip and you may need to run after him hitting him or the ground with some intention. I would suggest being satisfied with walk trot halt transitions at the start because we don’t know if he is fit or balanced enough for canter on a circle to be a fair ask.

Other fun things loose in the round pen is whoa (stand while I walk away) and then come when I whistle. This is useful as clicker training. Horses can legitimately be low energy but they csn also be shut down because they expect most cues from humans to be white noise they can ignore. Some clicker can get him motivated to pay attention to you.

Finally you don’t need longeng to fit up a lazy horse. You csn do it all in the saddle. So if longeing isn’t a useful tool with this horse don’t worry, just ride. Patterns and gait changes.

[endlessclimb]

There’s nothing wrong with using clucking/sounds to get a horse to move.

One cluck - walk
Continuous clucks - trot
Kiss - canter

With VERY sensitive ones, I use a warning sound before the kiss sound, because for whatever reason the kissing tends to make an explosive depart. The warning sound is a tick tick that I make with my tongue against my front teeth.

For downward transitions, I use the word itself - you can make it sound “down” by the tone of the voice.

I agree with everyone else - if you’re sure it’s not physical, you need to make the whip something he respects. Be cognizant to be out of kick range when you do this. Don’t be picky about what kind of forward you get at first - the goal is when I make a sound, I expect you to move FORWARD.

Side note - I am absolutely flabbergasted how many people with not-forward horses skip the lunging part of training. I see this time and time again - owner complains that Pookie is lazy under saddle and lo-and-behold the entire portion of groundwork has been skipped. Once you get Pookie responsive on the ground (not just on the lunge, everywhere - I say move over, I mean NOW; I say walk my speed I mean NOW; etc etc), suddenly the under saddle stuff makes so much more sense to them.

Don’t skip your ground work, folks!

[fivestrideline]

Lots of great advice above! Horses are safest and IMO happiest when they understand the expectations of their handlers, and I don’t think many enjoy the constant quiet nagging people like M’s owner might often do.

I wouldn’t be allowing the “nap and ignore” on the ground though. There’s a line here - this horse sounds like a good egg that is safe because he’s not going anywhere. You don’t want any emotion in it, but boy howdy when I say move I mean MOVE. It doesn’t have to be explosive, but the old Ask, Tell, MAKE IT HAPPEN progression works for a reason. I’d start the moment you walk into his space.

Lastly, he sounds like one that Reward = Leave Him Alone. Once he does what is asked, a “good boy”, maybe a pat, and let him chill for a minute rather than fussing over him with big praise like we might with a more people oriented horse. He may come around to that once he realizes you’re engaging and confident, but some horses just want to do their job and be done

[MissusS]

Lots of good advice here. One thing that I have benefitted from, going from a sensitive OTTB mare to a much more laid back appendix mare is: Be more interesting. My new mare is incredibly well broke. She grew up a western all-round horse her whole life and now has come to me, an adult beginner who aspires to low level dressage. We do a lot of groundwork (I got her just over 3 months ago, spent the first month entirely on groundwork and now spend approx half our time on groundwork) and she is super content to barely mosey along. If I am not intentional and interesting she will try out her default responses: Downward transitions to walk will result in a couple lazy walk steps then a full on halt; asking for a trot (coming up or down) will result in a jog.

I have worked through a LOT of this (still working on it!) by first and foremost being more interesting. We do a lot of work in hand. I will change up my pace, direction, etc as randomly as possible. I also will be walking then all of a sudden hop like a bunny, or flap my ams like a funky chicken, slap the half-wall as we walk by etc. I set up little obstacle courses, I use both stick and string, and flag (never at the same time of course), I work her around me and beside me in hand, I reward her in a variety of ways from treats to pats to just letting her chill and think about things for a moment. All these things add up to me being pretty interesting to her.

[TinFoilHat]

@Scribbler

Ok, it sounds like you are in a position with no intelligent adult help. I’m not clear why the coach can’t help you, but it’s true many perfectly fine riding instructors lack ground work training skills.

Yeah I’m gathering this as well

@Scribbler

pologies for thinking you are a junior. You sound now like a thoughtful adult, so I think learning basic ground skills at this stage is good.

Hey no worries. I didn’t take it personally or anything and I can see how you’d assume that. Unfortunately for me and greater society, I am in fact an adult.

I would quote the rest of the WEALTH of info and direction you sent my way but I’ll summarize my thoughts with: thank you - I genuinely appreciate it. I fully realize that this is a pretty basic skill in the grand scheme of everything, but as an amateur, as you called out, I only have the horses I’ve encountered in my lifetime to learn these things from. So seriously, I really appreciate your thoughtful and extensive response.

[TinFoilHat]

@endlessclimb

One cluck - walk
Continuous clucks - trot
Kiss - canter

This is exactly how I first learned to lunge which is why it’s kind of a default for me to try first.

@endlessclimb

Side note - I am absolutely flabbergasted how many people with not-forward horses skip the lunging part of training. I see this time and time again - owner complains that Pookie is lazy under saddle and lo-and-behold the entire portion of groundwork has been skipped. Once you get Pookie responsive on the ground (not just on the lunge, everywhere - I say move over, I mean NOW; I say walk my speed I mean NOW; etc etc), suddenly the under saddle stuff makes so much more sense to them.

Don’t skip your ground work, folks!

Completely, 100% everything you said above. i’ll be honest, I didn’t even really think about it in the way that you described, but it makes total sense. I was really just coming from a conditioning standpoint.

[TinFoilHat]

@fivestrideline

Lots of great advice above! Horses are safest and IMO happiest when they understand the expectations of their handlers, and I don’t think many enjoy the constant quiet nagging people like M’s owner might often do.

you unintentionally brought up a really good point. I think in my sessions so far with him (he’s only been in my care 2 weeks), because he doesn’t understand, he ends up getting frustrated and shutting down further. my fault, and that so far has been assuming that he knows basics when it’s becoming increasingly clear, he doesn’t.

@fivestrideline

Lastly, he sounds like one that Reward = Leave Him Alone. Once he does what is asked, a “good boy”, maybe a pat, and let him chill for a minute rather than fussing over him with big praise like we might with a more people oriented horse. He may come around to that once he realizes you’re engaging and confident, but some horses just want to do their job and be done

Solid - yeah he honestly just gets confused when i make it a big deal. but honestly, he’s totally content with just release of pressure.