[QUOTE=Cannonball;7219390]
After reading through the IHSA trainwreck thread, I couldn’t help but keep thinking “why do they have a beginner division at the college level that requires you not have any riding experience?”[/QUOTE]
Why? …
^ THIS is why.
Because riding is life.
I think anyone, of any age should have the opportunity to start riding, and if this is it, then great.
No reason to make this sport an elitist club where you had to start riding before you walked and know it all at 18, there’s enough of a snob/rich reputation already.
Inclusivity! If it makes you feel better, on my former team it was full of ringers who were born on horseback but never showed (ie trail riders or people who couldn’t afford to compete… And boys. Boys boys boys! Boy level 1s can get you a ribbon anyday
[QUOTE=Rel6;7220428]
IHSA is varsity at some schools - I know it is at mine. And I think the inclusion of the walk/trot division is amazing. The walk/trot rider’s points count just as much as the open o/f rider’s points. A lot of time the winning team is determined by the walk trot rider which means the whole team really supports the less experienced members.
If the team is varsity, it means that your expenses are covered. This allows girls who want to learn to ride to do so for free and get free show experience. We had one girl who started out in walk trot and ended up in novice and now had a part time job grooming at a farm.
The walk/trot division gives girls exposure to a new sport and makes them just as important as riders who have been doing it for 15+ years. Whats so wrong with that?[/QUOTE]
Now that some of you have decided I’m against new riders, walk/trot, ponies, honies and OTTB’s, I will offer a response. The reason I asked the question is the other thread indicated that finding beginner riders is difficult. It may not be accurate but that is what the thread indicated. Some of the responses above clearly don’t know quite as much as they believe they do, read the bolded section above.
Since it IS considered a VARSITY sport at some schools it is very unique that beginners are on the team and count towards results. For example in baseball it would be like batting through your line up and a few of the batters being allowed to hit off a tee. Obviously there is nothing wrong with hitting off a tee, even professionals still use it to improve their swing. But once you leave tee ball it isn’t used again in competition. Yes I understand that there is a huge cost difference between baseball and riding horses and perhaps this is the difference.
That’s it folks, no hidden agenda, I’m not out to stop IHSA competitions, it is just very different from how Varsity sports are widely considered. However, I would think the inclusion of beginners on a varsity sport would make it more difficult to be accepted by the NCAA/NCEA if the schools intention is to go from IHSA to NCAA. But it looks like I’m incorrect because several IHSA schools are on the NCAA prospective schools list.
If anyone knows of another sport that does something similar I’d love to hear about it.
[QUOTE=Cannonball;7221483]
Now that some of you have decided I’m against new riders, walk/trot, ponies, honies and OTTB’s, I will offer a response. The reason I asked the question is the other thread indicated that finding beginner riders is difficult. It may not be accurate but that is what the thread indicated. Some of the responses above clearly don’t know quite as much as they believe they do, read the bolded section above.
Since it IS considered a VARSITY sport at some schools it is very unique that beginners are on the team and count towards results. For example in baseball it would be like batting through your line up and a few of the batters being allowed to hit off a tee. Obviously there is nothing wrong with hitting off a tee, even professionals still use it to improve their swing. But once you leave tee ball it isn’t used again in competition. Yes I understand that there is a huge cost difference between baseball and riding horses and perhaps this is the difference.
That’s it folks, no hidden agenda, I’m not out to stop IHSA competitions, it is just very different from how Varsity sports are widely considered. However, I would think the inclusion of beginners on a varsity sport would make it more difficult to be accepted by the NCAA/NCEA if the schools intention is to go from IHSA to NCAA. But it looks like I’m incorrect because several IHSA schools are on the NCAA prospective schools list.
If anyone knows of another sport that does something similar I’d love to hear about it.[/QUOTE]
I was waiting for your rational response. Well said. I did not read your original post as offensive at all. You were just asking. This thread is basically proving the one negative thing I have to say about IHSA - it’s a great idea and great program but people take it WAY too seriously. My goodness. I’m certainly not saying it’s a joke so don’t jump down my throat. I just think IHSA is one of those programs that if taken too seriously will drive you insane! I’m sure someone will manage to be offended by this but that’s certainly not my intention!
The other reason there is a continuing search for new beginner riders is that the riders already on the team can win their way out of the starter divisions pretty quickly. Which is great, since it shows they’re doing well, but it means the team needs new people all the time to fill those empty slots in the walk-trot classes.
I don’t know if any other team sports are set up that way.
[QUOTE=MHM;7221512]
The other reason there is a continuing search for new beginner riders is that the riders already on the team can win their way out of the starter divisions pretty quickly. Which is great, since it shows they’re doing well, but it means the team needs new people all the time to fill those empty slots in the walk-trot classes.
I don’t know if any other team sports are set up that way.[/QUOTE]
Good point. The way the team points work, it is necessary to have strong riders at each and every level. In THEORY having total beginners in the walk trot is better than no rider… at least they have a chance! That’s most of the reasoning behind that “tall and skinny” comment I’m sure. In some sense having anyone in there is better than no one
I don’t think you’re analyzing this quite right. The levels are mainly derived by the level of formal experience a rider has-- not the level of skill or even training. Translate-- the levels are based on showing (mainly). Someone can be a very very very skilled rider but have had little/no formal training/showing and be a level 1.
That is no different than other sports. I can have no experience playing competitive tennis but I played all day long since I was a tot informally with my family and I walk on to a varsity level college tennis team. It’s not COMMON for someone to walk on in certain sports (i.e. football) but it’s QUITE common for someone to walk onto a varsity college team in a less dominant sport. There are lots of people out there who didn’t get into the recruitment stream for sports, or play a sport with little recruitment, and walk on at all levels in college.
Riding isn’t a highly dominant sport. There are probably “relative unknowns” who walk on to all levels of the IHSA. My team had lots of girls who showed big eq whose names you’d recognize. And… this one guy who rode Western but was PHENOMENAL who no one had ever heard of and breezed on as a 5/6. If competitions are all that matter, I suppose he was a “beginner” because the guy had never seen the equitation ring in his life… but could ride the hair off a dog, grew up with horses in his backyard, and knew more about horses and riding than I ever will.
Assuming level 1 means “beginner” or “unskilled” isn’t quite right. This is not someone walking onto the varsity football team who has never held a football. Not necessarily. It could be someone who has lots of skills but just never formally played. Level 1 riders are SHOWING at the walk/trot level but may have loads of experience-- just not experience disqualifying them from showing at that level in IHSA. Most of our level 1 had ridden for years. Our only true “beginners” were boys 
I used to love starting kids in Walk Trot. I called them our “Home Grown Heroes”. I didn’t believe in try outs as I also thought everyone should be able to do IHSA. That’s why Bob Cacchione started it- so students from all backgrounds could ride and compete on a Team.
As far as finding Walk Trotters- it was hard to compete against Cub sports that were free on campus. Kids could do Intramural Soccer for free one night a week or could get in a car drive 30-45 minutes to the barn, pay for lessons, and then get dressed up in funny clothes and compete on a horse they have never ridden before. Thank goodness we were able to offer reduced rates for Walk Trotters and the Open riders took them under their wing and mentored them.
One year I remember we had 2 Walk trotters that would be “moving up” to the Walk Trot Canter Division during the Season. Thinking ahead, I needed to start hopefully 3 kids to hope that one would be a super star that would find they liked horses, wanted to ride and make the commitment to a Team.
Luckily, one of the riders on the Team knew someone that thought would like to ride. I called her and picked her up to bring her to the barn…telling her to just come out and pet the horses and take a tour…Fast forward, I had her on a lunge line and a 20 minute Introductory lesson that first day.When I dropped her off at the College she said she had fun but wasn’t sure she wanted to join. I told her I would pick her up next week and luckily she did want to ride. She won the Team Walk Trot that Spring at Nationals. She was 5’4 and tiny- its not a Beginner’s build- its balance, commitment to compete and, I find, affinity for the horses.
There was also the year we won the Tournament of Champions with 2 Open riders who said when they went to look at schools some Coaches wouldn’t spend much time with them and honestly told them it was because they were too short…they were 5’6 and didn’t have the 6 foot tall 90 lb build. I was happy to have them- they could ride! And they were nice and they were committed to the Team.
But, I know I was a very, very lucky person to be able to coach the kids I had and to train out of Fieldstone and Herring Brook.
sorry to get nostalgic-
So Why Walk Trot? Exactly To Bring in new People to the sport. People who may not have ever had the opportunity to see a horse let alone ride one. I think it also pulls a team together to have beginners mixed with experienced especially if you have a Buddy System set up.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7221611]
Assuming level 1 means “beginner” or “unskilled” isn’t quite right. This is not someone walking onto the varsity football team who has never held a football. Not necessarily. It could be someone who has lots of skills but just never formally played. Level 1 riders are SHOWING at the walk/trot level but may have loads of experience-- just not experience disqualifying them from showing at that level in IHSA. Most of our level 1 had ridden for years. Our only true “beginners” were boys ;)[/QUOTE]
That may be, but I believe this whole discussion started over remarks made by a college riding coach on what qualities he looks for when he’s on the hunt for new riders who have no horse experience at all.
I’ve heard similar comments from other college riding coaches faced with the same problem, though their remarks were not phrased in quite the same way. Nor were they intended for publication in a national magazine.
I didn’t read the other thread so I am just responding to the comments/question here… namely “why have level in in IHSA, why are beginners on a varsity sport?”
The truth is, if beginner means “no formal national-level record of competition” then there are lots of “beginners” on virtually all varsity college teams.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7221689]
I didn’t read the other thread so I am just responding to the comments/question here… namely “why have level in in IHSA, why are beginners on a varsity sport?”
The truth is, if beginner means “no formal national-level record of competition” then there are lots of “beginners” on virtually all varsity college teams.[/QUOTE]
Why Walk Trot on IHSA VARSITY Teams? IHSA awards Team points for Walk trot Division. in IHSA shows there are 5 flat levels and 3 jumping levels, including Walk Trot. I think Walk Trot welcomes new comers into the sport.
Not every IHSA team has Varsity status with funding from their colleges. It would be interesting to see the numbers of Club teams vs Varsity IHSA status.
Varsity IHSA Teams (8 Divisions) are very different from NCEA (NCAA) Teams which offer just one level.
I’m well aware of all this having ridden IHSA (as noted in post #28). I am not sure why you’re telling me this?!
I think I mentioned inclusivity in post #23.
No one is asking “why specific teams bother with having levels 1s.” I think it’s quite clear, based on the point system that it beehoves teams to have point riders at every level. No one’s really asking about THAT. The question on this thread is more meta, the question is why IHSA should have levels 1s at all. That’s what I’m responding to.
I say we should have the level because of inclusivity.
I then refute the assumption that Level 1s are true “beginners” (or that they NEED be true beginners) and I point out that skilled-but-not-nationally-known walk ons are quite common in most college varsity sports aside from the big big BIG ones that rely heavily on recuiting.
[QUOTE=Sheila;7221732]Not every IHSA team has Varsity status with funding from their colleges. It would be interesting to see the numbers of Club teams vs Varsity IHSA status.
Varsity IHSA Teams (8 Divisions) are very different from NCEA (NCAA) Teams which offer just one level.[/QUOTE]
Again, not sure how this is germane to anything I said or to the discussion on this thread?! Yes, not all IHSA teams are varsity (mine was not). Some are club teams (mine was). NCEA is totally different than IHSA. Yes.
Not sure what that adds to the dialog, but that’s all true.
ok. sorry wow. Just posting to have fun and add to a Forum. Sorry I bothered.
[QUOTE=Sheila;7221812]
ok. sorry wow. Just posting to have fun and add to a Forum. Sorry I bothered.[/QUOTE]
I’m just trying to understand what you’re trying to say back to me. It’s like the OP said “What time is it?” I said “noon,” you responded back to me and said “The sky is blue.” True… but not responsive to the conversation. I’m trying to figure out if I am mis understanding you or what you’re trying to say. It seemed like what you said was all noncontroversial stuff but sort of a non sequiter in the conversation. Not trying to be mean, just trying to understand what you’re saying back to me in the context of the flow of this conversation.
Actually, if teams are playing by the rules, walk trot (level 1) riders do need to be true beginners- less than 24 weeks instruction. I guess there could be the rare exception of someone who has just hopped on horses in their backyard, but most people start riding with lessons of some kind, and would quickly be bumped up to walk trot canter.
I’m blanking on this for some reason - I know they can steward check you down a level if your placement sheet puts you higher than you should be, but can they bump you up?
[QUOTE=Jumper221;7221844]
Actually, if teams are playing by the rules, walk trot (level 1) riders do need to be true beginners- less than 24 weeks instruction. I guess there could be the rare exception of someone who has just hopped on horses in their backyard, but most people start riding with lessons of some kind, and would quickly be bumped up to walk trot canter.[/QUOTE]
The lesson part is awfully tough to prove. And let’s just say… some coaches looked the other way when there was no EVIDENCE a rider had taken a certain number of lessons
In addition, at least on my team we had a host of fantastic but “backyard” riders who really didn’t have much in the way of formal instruction/lessons. They just sort of got on and went. Especially those who came from more of a trail riding or Western background. For whatever reason they didn’t see as lesson-centric as hunter riders-- but boy could some of them RIDE. The one I mentioned above was BREAKING horses when he was a kid. I mean, that guy could RIDE even if he had fewer lessons than you can count on your hand (and by virtue of some reining competition, he came above a level 1 but still weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllll below his actual skills). He could RIDE.
Even now, I see the local 4H in my area. There are kids who are really, really accomplished and truly have had fewer than 24 weeks of what you’d really call “lessons.” I certainly started with lessons, but not everyone does.
[QUOTE=harrisburgrules;7221851]
I’m blanking on this for some reason - I know they can steward check you down a level if your placement sheet puts you higher than you should be, but can they bump you up?[/QUOTE]
Your coach can pretty much put you in any level above the one you place in. But, obviously this is almost never done for competitive reasons.
ETA: The stewards cannot bump you up unless you were intentionally misplaced in a lower division than you should have been (aka cheating). If you’re honest on your placement form, but just really good, I don’t think they can do anything but hope you point out quickly.
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