I'm too quiet with my hands? I'm confused

[Just1Alter]

I’m currently moving up from first level to second level and ride a well-educated horse who knows more than me but is an absolute saint. Completely worth his weight in gold times ten.

My trainer tells me that I am too quiet with my hands and I have to say, this has me perplexed. I thought the goal was to have quiet, steady hands that would invite a horse into the contact, instead of busy hands that causes mouth pain from an inconsistent contact. I expressed my confusion with my trainer and she has explained what she means but because I’m still so stuck on what I thought I’ve always been taught and heard, I will have to ask her for another refresher.

I know as riders move up the levels they tend to have to relearn difference concepts. I’m wondering if this is one of those concepts too.

I’m not entirely sure how to word my question. But maybe as I gain more clarity, I can form my question or figure out what I am confused about.

If you are either at or were at 2nd level or 3rd level, what was the purpose of the reins, other than to half-halt to rebalance the horse?

I trust my trainer and plan to have a more in-depth conversation about this again, but I’m coming to COTH to read about the experiences of others with the goal of taking a few bits of pieces from each post to gather my thoughts or fill in some of the blanks.

[Airfern]

I am not entirely sure what your trainer meant by too quiet/ but here is my understanding of it.

Quiet hands does not mean that the hands do not move and are held steady. Your reins via the connection to the bit are used to communicate, Busy hands talk too much. Immobile hands don’t say enough. Hands should be able to move and give and to block. The same goes for the rest of your aids.You would not want to sit as still as possible, you need to be able to work your seat, core and legs to give the aids. The difficulty is teaching yourself to whisper the aids, not suppress them.

[TequilaMockingbird]

I think what your trainer means by your hands being too quiet is that you don’t have an active connection with your horse’s mouth. The contact should be dynamic and elastic, not fixed and unmoving like a human side rein.

[pluvinel]

“Too quiet” means “Ineffective”.

“Busy hands” are hands that are all over the place…hands that don’t clearly communicate a message to the horse.

“To quiet” hands are hands that are “passive”…eg. hands that are attached to a rider that is a passenger.

Effective Hands are hands that clearly convey a message to the horse, and then get out of the horse’s way and don’t interfere…These are hands that are used when needed and are otherwise quiet.

“Cessation of the aides”…of both of hands and legs…allow the horse to be in self carriage, but that does not mean the rider is a passive load.

[hoopoe]

perhaps passive hands is a better term? Too passive?

[Crockpot]

There needs to be a living conversation within the contact

I think many do not understand that

[kashmere]

Yes, I would imagine this is your trainer’s way of saying you are being ineffective with your rein aid.

[CHT]

In an ideal world, I agree with the above comments as being what your coach means. In realty though: do her other “elite” students have visually quiet hands? Some coaches like a very active rider and a horse that is more or less behind the contact. So hopefully your coach meant “ineffective”, but I wouldn’t assume that as I do not know your coach.

[Just1Alter]

@Airfern

I am not entirely sure what your trainer meant by too quiet/ but here is my understanding of it.

Quiet hands does not mean that the hands do not move and are held steady. Your reins via the connection to the bit are used to communicate, Busy hands talk too much. Immobile hands don’t say enough. Hands should be able to move and give and to block. The same goes for the rest of your aids.You would not want to sit as still as possible, you need to be able to work your seat, core and legs to give the aids. The difficulty is teaching yourself to whisper the aids, not suppress them.

Thank you! The comparison to the leg aids was extremely helpful, very much a light bulb moment!
I think you are right on the dot about not communicating enough. My hands are immobile that I don’t say enough for what I need for the 2nd level work.

[Just1Alter]

@pluvinel

Effective Hands are hands that clearly convey a message to the horse, and then get out of the horse’s way and don’t interfere…These are hands that are used when needed and are otherwise quiet.

This makes sense. What are some other “messages” that are conveyed to the horse via the hands, besides half-halts to rebalance? Asking for flexion, relaxation of the jaw & neck? I think this is the second part I get stuck at.

“Cessation of the aides”…of both of hands and legs…allow the horse to be in self carriage, but that does not mean the rider is a passive load.

Can you elaborate on what cessation of the aids of hands and legs is, in terms of what the rider’s body is doing? Maybe this is where my misunderstanding of having effective hands is also coming from.

[Just1Alter]

@hoopoe

perhaps passive hands is a better term? Too passive?

Yes, I think passive makes more sense and is a better description of what I do. Thanks! Having a new term to describe it actually helps me.

[suzy]

Quiet hands are good hands. Feeling hands are educated hands.

[Scribbler]

@Just1Alter

This makes sense. What are some other “messages” that are conveyed to the horse via the hands, besides half-halts to rebalance? Asking for flexion, relaxation of the jaw & neck? I think this is the second part I get stuck at.

Can you elaborate on what cessation of the aids of hands and legs is, in terms of what the rider’s body is doing? Maybe this is where my misunderstanding of having effective hands is also coming from.

Very good points already in this post about passive hands.

Cessation of the aids means you give an aid, the horse responds promptly, and then you stop giving that aid. As long as the horse continues to do what you want, you don’t give the aid again. You don’t stop contact, you just stay in neutral.

An obvious example would be: use your leg to ask for trot. Horse should trot and maintain the gait. You don’t need to then kick at every stride. Riding every stride does not mean applying all the aids at every stride. It means you don’t doze off up there.

I also recommend watching some lessons with your trainers somewhat more advanced long term students to see what style they develop.

As to what the hands do on a horse with some schooling, the hands tend to be less about change of direction and downward transition (though always there if needed) and more about balancing the horse laterally and vertically.

My coach has us start with lateral flexions in hand and at the walk right at the start or on a green horse, so we have a repertoire of rein aids to use for balancing and rebalancing the horse. You can ask the horse to stretch to the bit, to bend or counter bend, turn off the outside rein, raise his head, or do a bit of shoulder fore to balance on a trot or canter circle. Later the horse learns to give at the poll vertically and start collection. Etc.

For all this you need a totally independent seat and hands. Your hands should be able to go anywhere without your seat changing or you feeling off balance.

I say this because I do see dressage students develop a level of comfort riding on very strong contact such that they feel insecure riding on a loose rein.

They express it as saying the rein feels too long or the horse will bolt, but really they have started to water-ski on the reins to some degree.

[Crockpot]

again- there needs to be a living conversation between the hands and the mouth- for dressage

same thing with all other aids.

It is a common misundertanding that dressage should be all about loose reins. no.

[Just1Alter]

@Scribbler

Cessation of the aids means you give an aid, the horse responds promptly, and then you stop giving that aid. As long as the horse continues to do what you want, you don’t give the aid again.

An obvious example would be: use your leg to ask for trot. Horse should trot and maintain the gait. You don’t need to then kick at every stride. Riding every stride does not mean applying all the aids at every stride. It means you don’t doze off up there.

Thank you!! Makes complete sense!

[pluvinel]

If you have been trained in the “germanic school” of horse training/riding, perhaps these are new terms, but “cessation of the aids” is another description of “descente de mains” or “descente de jambes” …eg., cessation of the use of legs or hands.

You cannot learn to ride from the internet, but here is a description…
http://www.cousyndressage.com/descent-de-maines-et-descente-de-jambes.html

[Scribbler]

@Crockpot

again- there needs to be a living conversation between the hands and the mouth- for dressage

same thing with all other aids.

It is a common misundertanding that dressage should be all about loose reins. no.

Loose reins? LOL. What I see more often is dressage being all about riding “in a frame” in super strong contact. Lean your weight on the reins, get sore arms, seesaw the bit, get a head carriage.

Very active hands but very few rein aids.

[TequilaMockingbird]

@Just1Alter

This makes sense. What are some other “messages” that are conveyed to the horse via the hands, besides half-halts to rebalance? Asking for flexion, relaxation of the jaw & neck? I think this is the second part I get stuck at.

Yes, encouraging flexion, relaxation, even asking for counterflexion if the horse needs it. I often use the outside rein to straighten my horse through the shoulder if the horse becomes too bent laterally in the neck on a curved line or when we are turning through a corner or ending a curved line (finishing a circle and proceeding straight down the long side for example).

[Scribbler]

@pluvinel

If you have been trained in the “germanic school” of horse training/riding, perhaps these are new terms, but “cessation of the aids” is another description of “descente de mains” or “descente de jambes” …eg., cessation of the use of legs or hands.

You cannot learn to ride from the internet, but here is a description…
http://www.cousyndressage.com/descent-de-maines-et-descente-de-jambes.html

Good description! Reading this I realized that when I first heard the term “descente de mains,” I thought it must mean “lower the hands,” not just “stop the active rein aids.” The perils of high school French

[Just1Alter]

@TequilaMockingbird

Yes, encouraging flexion, relaxation, even asking for counterflexion if the horse needs it. I often use the outside rein to straighten my horse through the shoulder if the horse becomes too bent laterally in the neck on a curved line or when we are turning through a corner or ending a curved line (finishing a circle and proceeding straight down the long side for example).

Great, thanks! I think I’m starting to theoretically put all the pieces together so I’m not as mentally confused and will be able to understand what my instructor is saying.