Immune supplements?

[J-Lu]

Hi all,

Can anyone recommend immune system supplements for a horse? I’m skeptical of them, please tell me why I shouldn’t be.

My horse recently had multiple intradermal granulomas come up, mostly in the throatlatch and the throatlatch neck area. A few have arisen on other parts of his body, including his back. They came up about a month ago and in an approximately 2-2.5 week time frame. They have since stopped multiplying.

My vet was perplexed and biopsy results came back as eosinophilic fibromas. She suggests a reaction to insect bites. We are perplexed regarding why now and why in that small time frame and why in that anatomical location. Nothing has obviously changed. He is in his own private almost 1 acre pasture, very well maintained pasture (mown, dragged plus Graze On), gets ration balancer and about 1/3 his weight ration of Pro Force Fuel twice daily. My vet thinks his weight is at the upper end of “very good”. Plus hay until they stop eating it. There is 1 fire ant mound in the field, odds are he did not lay with his throat in it.

She suggested an immune supplement because he clearly had an immune response and maybe they would help.

Can anyone recommend any immune supplements? Or, any insight into lumps caused by eosinophilic fibroma? (Eosinophils are a type of white blood cell that are activated when something the body considers to be foreign enters. They are highly increased in response to parasites, for example. Here, the eosinophils entered the skin, suggesting a response to something penetrating the skin, like an insect bite).

Thank you!

[DawningDreams]

Immune supplements are aimed to reduce harmful free radicals in the body (they are mainly antioxidants) and maintain a proper immune response from the Horse. I don’t have a specific supplement but there are a few key ingredients that I’d suggest looking for: Vitamin E (depending on your horse’s diet, he may need up to 6,000IU), vitamin C, and grape seed extract. Additionally, you may consider adding about a cup of flax into your horse’s diet. The omega content has been proven to help with insect related hypersensitivity and immune responses. A good quality immune supplement can go a long way in these kinds of situations! Good luck!

[Nicki_s_Mom]

I use and love Platinum Performance’s Immune Support. It is pricey, but very powerful. It has Thymus Protein and Colostrum. I feed it around spring shot time to help reduce the side effects of shots.

[J-Lu]

Thanks, guys!

I’m skeptical because I study a “species” of oxidants for a living. But horses are the ultimate control group, they have no idea what you are giving them. I really appreciate your responses and look forward to the responses of others. Dawning Dream, my horse has had mild fly sensitivity for a while, but not strong enough for my vet to recommend treatment. But she doesn’t rule out that one of these years, treatment may be necessary (he rubs his mane). His grain has Omega fatty acids but he’s on a diet these days. I added a supplement with OFA, I’ll have to bring my scale and re-weigh everything.

I will look into the PP Immune Support! Thanks! It can’t be more expensive than biopsy costs!

[retiredhorse]

Lysine? Haven’t used it on a horse myself, but I know of a barn that does to prevent various skin crud problems. Their vet suggested it and they’ve had good results, plus less itching of manes and tails too; I’m not sure what else the horses are on, though. I think it’s an immune booster for people also, and may help with allergies (I’ve tried it myself and didn’t really notice a difference, or at least it was not as effective as allergy pill, but I was also not good about taking consistently). Does your vet have any suggestions?

[J-Lu]

Retiredhorse,

Thanks! My vet suggested an immune supplement with antioxidants and zinc, but she acknowledged that none had definitive scientific studies supporting them. She also said she had clients who used Mushroom Matrix, and she saw what appeared to be improvement, but she can’t point to scientifically sound evidence for that improvement. I’m a scientist, and she respects that. I’ll look into these supplements, but I’m not keen on wasting my money on non-scientific supplements. I can have an open mind, but I like to see some kind of mechansim of action.

[retiredhorse]

I hear you about spending money on stuff that doesn’t work. Or has no proven studies and only anecdotal support. On that note, FWIW, I take zinc and I notice a huge difference with it. Dermatologist suggested it for acne, and it worked. It did take like 3 months or so to notice a difference – and it was slow improvement. It’s more of something I notice if don’t take it (skin issues come back) vs something that has an instant effect. The one I take is Zinc monomethionine, because something about how not all zinc supplements are easily absorbed by people, I don’t know about horses. Also I can’t take it without food because it makes me nauseous – again, I don’t know about horses.

And because I’ve seen that barn’s success with lysine, if I had a horse with skin/immune issues, I would be more inclined to try it. Actually, I tried it on myself because it worked on their horses (though I was trying to lessen allergy symptoms and they were using it for skin issues), but I don’t think I was on it for long enough to make a difference.

ETA: maybe these only work if one is deficient in them to begin with. So if your horse isn’t, maybe they won’t make a difference. Or maybe he’s deficient in some other vit/min, but I don’t know how you would test for all of that, or if it’s more cost effective to do the trial-and-error of supplements to find something that works rather than testing.

[Jungle_Monkey]

I’ve had good success with Platinum Skin & Allergy. My horse has a bunch of allergies and it helps.

Algal Omega-3 Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA), Quercetin, Purified Thymus Protein Complex (Bovine)

Active Ingredients Per 1 Scoop (3,200mg)

• Algal Omega-3 Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA)* 510mg
• Quercetin 105mg
• Purified Thymus Protein Complex (Bovine) (Thymic Protein and Zinc Gluconate)780mcg

[Simkie]

How is your iron level?

Excess iron can throw off the copper/zinc/iron ratio and cause weird issues. When I had pink water, I saw a lot of persistent scratches. Started supplementing copper and zinc, scratches cleared up nearly overnight. Excess iron can be in water, soil, in or on hay and grass. I also saw summer excess summer bleaching and one horse just would NOT shed her winter coat. Poly copper and poly zinc are cheap from Uckele or Horsetech and could be worth trying.

Flax is also inexpensive and the omega 3 helps with inflammation.

I’d be tempted to start with copper, zinc and flax and see how he does.

[Jungle_Monkey]

Agree with Simke about high iron levels. I’ve been battling a number of issues partly due to high iron levels.

I got my water tested and it was high so installed a splitter for the iron filter so it would work for the barn water as well. Getting my soil tested is on the list for this year. When I got my hay tested last fall, they told me iron was on the test and ended up not being there so that was annoying.

You can test for all of those levels to get an idea what you are starting with. High iron levels can take a REALLY long time to come down.

I’ve been testing my horse every 8 weeks or so for iron, glucose, insulin, ACTH, cortisol, copper, zinc,cobalt, mangenese, molybdenum, vit E, selenium, magnesium, sodium, potassium chloride…

[kiwichick]

I tried immuno boosters when my horse was severely ill with a bad infection, I have to be honest they didnt appear to do anything and they are all kinds of expensive.
I have also found that immuno boosters dont appear to work well for myself either, I dont know if its because I dont take them until I feel sick, and therefore too late, or if they just dont help.
If its a suspected insect issue maybe garlic would be the best go

[J-Lu]

Thanks! Simkie and junglemonkey, I recently weighed his diet and figured out his intake from what I feed him (it all seems mostly good for equine intake, but protein is low), but iron isn’t listed on the packages. The barn owner is a professional geologist and I can ask him about the relative iron content in the soil. The water at the barn is well water and was tested extensively when the new owners bought the barn- it is pretty pristine and they drink it without a filter but I’ll ask about iron specifically. I’ll ask about the other mineral profile, too.

My horse bleaches A LOT in the summer, but no other horse on the property does. My vet doesn’t seem concerned. He is almost black in the winter but goes almost buckskin in the summer - he lives outside and prefers this situation. The black doesn’t fade, just the “bay” part. Again, he’s not exactly deficient in minerals, as he’s always had Nutrena grain and more recently, a diet balancer as his grain is cut back. On paper, his intake of most things is pretty good.

He has always had a mild fly allergy that we watch every year, but my vet is hesitant to treat until it gets worse. He has lived where he lives for 4 years, this is the first year THIS happened.

Jungle Monkey, I’m hesitant to give bovine Thymus extract. We use that in the lab to induce unpleasantness in cells, although I’m sure the dose is different and the stomach digests most of it. That said, I’ll look into the Platinum Skin and Allergy analysis - thanks!

Thank you everyone! I appreciate your input. Like I said, my vet is just as perplexed, so it’s a matter of trying things. His lumps seem to have plateaued and aren’t multiplying any more. On the older ones, hair is lost and they seem to be “weeping” serum and therefore have crustiness. But some are still “hairy”, like thankfully the ones under the saddle panels he doesn’t seem to care about.

[J-Lu]

@Simkie

How is your iron level?

Excess iron can throw off the copper/zinc/iron ratio and cause weird issues. When I had pink water, I saw a lot of persistent scratches. Started supplementing copper and zinc, scratches cleared up nearly overnight. Excess iron can be in water, soil, in or on hay and grass. I also saw summer excess summer bleaching and one horse just would NOT shed her winter coat. Poly copper and poly zinc are cheap from Uckele or Horsetech and could be worth trying.

Flax is also inexpensive and the omega 3 helps with inflammation.

I’d be tempted to start with copper, zinc and flax and see how he does.

PS, he sheds just fine. Juuuuuust fiiiiiine.

His Nutrena feed and supplement (Boost, given to be by a boarder) have omega fatty acids in them. I’m not feeding to the label (he is not starving and his Nutrena feeds are high in fat) but he gets some of these. His Copper and Zinc seem to fulfill an adult horse’s needs.

[Simkie]

@J-Lu

PS, he sheds just fine. Juuuuuust fiiiiiine.

His Nutrena feed and supplement (Boost, given to be by a boarder) have omega fatty acids in them. I’m not feeding to the label (he is not starving and his Nutrena feeds are high in fat) but he gets some of these. His Copper and Zinc seem to fulfill an adult horse’s needs.

Yeah, I only had the one that didn’t shed. They all benefited from the copper and zinc.

The fact he bleaches heavily is very suggestive he needs more copper and zinc. You cannot account for everything “on paper.” Water, soil, what’s in and on his forage. And just his own personal biology…some horses just have higher needs than others. (I suspect eventually we’ll figure out that the microbiome plays a role here.) Poly copper and poly zinc from uckele or horse tech are cheap to try. A half dose of each would not be harmful.

The nutrena empower boost contains both omega 3 and 6. Omega 6 is PRO inflammatory. Probably doesn’t matter for most horses, but in one like this where you’re looking to eliminate inflammation, it might. Flax is omega 3. Anti inflammatory. Straight flax also might be less expensive? I feed a half cup of the ground and stabilized triple crown product to most of mine, and a full cup to the one who needs a little more omega 3.

[Color_of_Light]

Last year I looked at Platinum Performance Immune Support and their Skin and Allergy, Santa Cruz Animal Health Skin and Allergy, and a few other products. I realized that these products all contain the same ingredients: quercetin, omega 3, calf thymus. There was another product or two that I found that was comparable to PP Immune support that contained colostrum. I researched all the ingredients as to what they did for people and animals. Then I researched the best and cheapest place to buy the ingredients, did the math and decided it was a lot cheaper for me to mix up my own supplement with the same ingredients.

Since last summer I’ve been feeding one sensitive horse the same concoction. I saw a lot of improvement last summer but this spring his coat is better than it’s ever been in the last few years! So far I am no longer needing to use a daily antihistamine like I did last year, but I do use it as needed. This is what I’ve been feeding:

Quercitin (human grade)
Ground Flax (50 lb bag, ground as needed)
Calf Thymus (human grade)
Brewers Yeast
Nutritional Yeast
Vitamin E powder (natural E from SCA Health)
Zinc (ground human pills)
Sacred 7 Mushroom Extract Powder
Spirulina
Colostrum
Vitamin C (ground 500 mg human pills)

The main ingredients that I am feeding is Quercetin and ground flax. Then zinc, brewers yeast, nutritional yeast. Followed by lesser amounts of the other ingredients. I experimented with only feeding ground flax a few years ago. It did nothing at all. At this point in time, this horse looks great, night and day over last year. I am not needing to feed this every day. I’ve been able to cut back to every other day or so and have maintained the same results.

@J-Lu

.

@Nicki's Mom

.

@Jungle Monkey

.

[J-Lu]

^^^^^ Thanks a lot, you two. I have a lot of research to do. Color of Light, I was considering making my own mix and I really appreciate sharing your mix.

Turns out, the barn owner was planning on getting the pastures tested anyway and is going to go ahead and do that now that I offered to have my horse’s pasture tested. The joys of having a professional geologist obsessed with soil and vegetation growth own the barn. All horses are mainly on pasture-only forage from mid-April-ish to mid October, November-ish (very few horses require grain, everyone gets ration balancer). This analysis will greatly help me.

Jungle Monkey, do you test by a blood draw? Regular chem screen?

[Jungle_Monkey]

That’s great that the barn owner wants to do that.

Yes we draw several vials of blood.

They are special tests we ask for that get sent away to one of the Universities here.

I’ve stopped looking at my vet bills at this point (vet is generally out once a week or every two weeks for something) so I’m not sure how much it all costs. Maybe $350-400 for all of it?

I found I had to play around with different combinations to figure out what worked for my petal.

If your horse has high iron levels it will throw off zinc, copper etc so even the feed looks ok on paper it might not be enough. They generally need a lot more of that stuff if they are high iron.

[J-Lu]

Thanks, Jungle Monkey! I just looked at the USDA geological survey for my area (on Google Earth, so pretty specific) ( https://mrdata.usgs.gov/soilgeochemistry/#/detail/element/26 ) and the Iron levels and Cu levels are pretty middle of the road where my horse is. Zn is low in the soil, but fine in the supplements. I’ll ask the BO if these maps are accurate. I’m considering enhancing Zn, but water soluble vitamins are just urinated out so I’m more conservative with the vit C antioxidant. Then I’ll wait for the actual soil samples. The BO is funny, he’s obsessed with weeds everywhere, drainage patterns in the ring and pastures, and footing. We poke fun but don’t complain too much. Last year, he planted a patch of clover in my horse’s pasture because my horse loves it and the Graze On killed the clover. I can identify grass types and weeds,know how to maintain pastures and drive large machinery because of him! :lol:

Not looking at vet bills seems to be a general theme with many people these days! ;):lol::lol:

[Color_of_Light]

I remembered on other thing that I did starting in the fall. I squirted some A and D injectable over feed. I did this every month over the winter. I read about this on another forum, but now I’m not sure which one.

https://www.understanding-horse-nutrition.com/vitamin-a.html
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-nutrition/vitamin-supplements-140120/

https://www.omegafields.com/blog/vitamin-d/
https://ker.com/equinews/vitamin-d-equine-diets/

[Color_of_Light]

I just remembered one other thing I did. Last fall I started squirting A and D injectable over feed. I read about this on another forum. Now I can’t remember or find which one it was. I’ll have to dig around.

https://www.understanding-horse-nutr…vitamin-a.html

https://ker.com/equinews/vitamin-d-equine-diets/

https://www.understanding-horse-nutrition.com/vitamin-a.html