Import advice: Sidebone, how much to offer below asking price

[canterplease]

Long-time forum reader and first-time poster. Appreciate any thoughts/advice in advance!

I am in the process of purchasing a mare from Germany off video. 5 y/o beautiful/sane/sound/incredible mover from a reputable seller - she is exactly what I’ve been looking for in a hunter prospect. The plan is to enjoy her for a year or maybe two, put some show miles on, and resell. Hopefully for a small profit, if we’re lucky.

This is not my first time importing, nor is it my first time buying off video. However, it is my first time potentially buying a horse with “moderate risk” in her x-rays. Namely, she has some sidebone (albeit small and balanced on both sides of the foot) in her right front.

My vet reviewed x-rays and dozens of video (lunging, trotting on pavement, flexions, video of entire PPE) and all looks good with the one caveat of the sidebone. She is very sound, however, and I’ve been told she’s never been lame. She has been competing in dressage since a 3-year-old and, for the last year, in the 1.0 m jumpers. Owner is a young girl with not a lot of jumping experience, which is why she hasn’t jumped bigger.

After lots of deliberation, I’ve decided the sidebone is worth the risk and I want to go ahead and make an offer. My question is, how much could I reasonably ask off the price with the sidebone in mind as a factor that would impact resale down the road? They are asking just under mid five figures.

ETA: I’m fully aware of the risk, so my question is not so much about whether the purchase is a good idea or whether I’ll make a profit, but more about how much (%-wise) one would deem reasonable to offer below asking price for this or a similar issue, given the fact that everything else about the horse is a 10 out of 10.

Thanks in advance!

[tohorse]

The price is in EUR?
Edited: Totally misread - I thought it was below 5 figures. Last time I looked (last summer) mid-five figures for a horse like this is A LOT in that part of the world unless you have some extra-ordinary breeding or “potential” or show record.
In Western Europe for an ordinary, good egg of a 5 y.o. with some miles up to 1m I’d expect to pay anywhere between 7-20k coming straight from the owner, depending on breeding and “potential”. The really nice ones will be obviously be a lot more expensive, but I cannot tell where this horse falls under that spectrum.

I’d start by asking what’s your fully loaded cost and go from there. I’m sure she’d be fabulous and do well, but if you actually target the resale market, the right question to ask would be how much that finding would factor into the price here for the level/target audience you intend to market her at and whether you’re fine with the cut into your returns.

[LovesHorses]

I just bought one with sidebone. It’s a youngster with only a few months under saddle and sound. Sidebone is only on the outside of one foot. Likely caused by very crappy farrier work his entire life. You could see the hoof is considerably off balance in the x-ray. Both the vet that did the pre-purchase and my vet here were not really concerned and only a minor risk. They did say it would be better if the sidebone was on both sides. I was able get the price down some.

[AmmyHunter]

As a seller I would expect to have to come off your price at least 10% for the sidebone, and you will lose some buyers altogether, because while it mostly doesn’t cause problems, when it goes wrong, it can be hard to fix. I have had two friends deal with sidebone related lameness in recent years, one horse had to retire and one horse had significant time off, so it is an actual risk not just a negotiating tactic.

[canterplease]

Price is in EUR and yes, definitely on the high end of the spectrum - she is not coming straight from the owner but via a dealer who frequently works with American buyers. It’s the breeding, movement, and stellar jumping style that warrants the price (& the seller definitely knows how much A/O hunters are selling for in the US). She has good value solely as a broodmare if she were to get injured. But you’re right that the question really is, how much will the sidebone impact the ability to resell and that eventual sale price down the road… (even if she stays 100% sound)

[StormyDay]

I’d be concerned about resale. If you were buying for yourself, I’d say go right ahead, probably worth the risk. But do you actually think you are going to get more than your money back on this horse? I’d say probably not.
With import fees of at least 10k (more like 15 with a mare) plus purchase price, plus feeding, farrier, etc… you probably need to sell this horse for a least 50k to make even a profit.

As a buyer, why would I spend that money on your horse with a known issue over a horse that’s the same price but doesn’t have those issues?

The people who make money on imports import sound horses who usually don’t have what it takes to be a good jumper in Europe but are perfect for the American hunter market. They import a horse for 20k and sell for 30k a few weeks later.

[EmilyM]

If the horse trots sound on a hard surface in a circle I would not worry about this finding. I bought a rising 4 year old w symmetrical side bone on both fronts. I just made sure he trotted sound on the hard circle and I was fine w the findings. That was over two years ago.

If I were a seller and the clinical was good, I would not discount this horse.

[tohorse]

I was in a similar situation last year, passed on a mare that had front hoof issues (not sidebone). My vet friend in BE advised not to count on breeding the mare as a last resort. Reasons are two-fold. First, with ET becoming so popular the top value breeding mares are typically fairly accomplished in their own right, so a green mare with no show record will have less relative value for the breeding market. I’m not the right person to quote you a price on an “oldschool” (i.e. egg+carrier) broodmare, but I reckon it will be less than half of your fully-loaded cost as of now.
Secondly, my friend warned that some of these conformational issues can actually be inherited, so she personally wouldn’t select a mare that was retired to breeding due to the risks of passing down the conformation to the offspring. If you have the facilities and will take the risk yourself then none of this obviously applies to you. The mare I looked at was absolutely lovely and also was top of my budget (though from the sound of it much cheaper). I just wasn’t in the position to breed myself and likely won’t be for years to come.
What’s the chance that nobody else would be interested at the mare at this price point? If I were you, I’d give them an offer for a price that would make you feel like you got a good deal on this horse, but that’s a high risk, high reward scenario. Since you’re dealing with an agent familiar with the market you eventually want to sell to they might be able to work something out, because it doesn’t take a genius to see that currently your economics may not work out.
I personally have a feeling the current price is pretty heavily padded - i.e. sound horse marketed to American buyers, so there’s a lot more room for negotiation vs. than what I’d usually say if the horse is more in the high fours/low fives budget and coming straight from the owner. If next year the mare had jumped 120 with an ammie rider for a full season the findings wouldn’t be nearly as relevant. Therefore, generally the European owners (vis-a-vis Americans) will be more interested to retain the horse longer if they can’t get the price they want, because bringing the horse up the levels and putting miles in Europe to demonstrate that the limitations are solely in the x-ray image just economically makes sense. An agent, especially the sort you’ve described, however, has opportunity costs for not moving the horse fast enough and that very well may work in your favour in this case.

[AmmyHunter]

@StormyDay

As a buyer, why would I spend that money on your horse with a known issue over a horse that’s the same price but doesn’t have those issues?

The number of people on this thread who bought horses with sidebone confirms there are buyers out there. If the horse has talent/quality, and the sidebone doesn’t cause issues or progress in the meantime, it’s more likely to affect price than prevent a sale. But that’s why you wouldn’t want to pay top dollar on import - you have to factor in the reduction you are likely to have to make in sales price on the back end.

[canterplease]

Good to know! I have a feeling this mare’s sidebone was caused by poor trimming - she’s been barefoot her whole life up until about 6 weeks ago when she arrived at the sales barn. Hoping we can knock off about 10-15%. Waiting on video of her trotting a circle on pavement to double check.

[Farosh]

Idk don’t you think you could find a similar horse with a better vetting? Sidebone can be really rough especially for a young horse.

Idk maybe you’re more experienced than I am but if it’s a young horse jumping 1.0m I’d like clean X-rays. If it’s older and has been sound for a long time and jumping a lot then ok. Idk I’ve seen sidebone be really bad and make talented horses retire very early. I’m not a vet obviously but I don’t like that stuff.

[StormyDay]

@AmmyHunter

@StormyDay

As a buyer, why would I spend that money on your horse with a known issue over a horse that’s the same price but doesn’t have those issues?

The number of people on this thread who bought horses with sidebone confirms there are buyers out there. If the horse has talent/quality, and the sidebone doesn’t cause issues or progress in the meantime, it’s more likely to affect price than prevent a sale. But that’s why you wouldn’t want to pay top dollar on import - you have to factor in the reduction you are likely to have to make in sales price on the back end.

I read it as that OP was planning on spending more for the import than the norm. Am I reading that wrong? She’s saying just under 58k for a 4 year old with side one. That’s a big risk. Can OP sell this horse for 60, 70k?
I’d say no. Why would I, as a buyer, spend that money on this horse with a known issue over another horse that’s the same price but vetted clean? Maybe as a buyer I’d do 40 or 30k.

Now my only caveat to that is if this horse is some sort of magical creature who is going to go win a 1.60 course or can sweep WEF hunter week. Because we all know those horses pass hands with all sorts of crazy medical issues and it doesn’t effect the price.

Just my opinion. Maybe there are oodles of people lining up to buy 4 year olds with side bone for 60k.

[StormyDay]

@Farosh

Idk don’t you think you could find a similar horse with a better vetting? Sidebone can be really rough especially for a young horse.

Idk maybe you’re more experienced than I am but if it’s a young horse jumping 1.0m I’d like clean X-rays. If it’s older and has been sound for a long time and jumping a lot then ok. Idk I’ve seen sidebone be really bad and make talented horses retire very early. I’m not a vet obviously but I don’t like that stuff.

My worry too. There’s a big difference between a 4 year old in light work being sound and a older horse in heavy work being sound with side bone. It would be a hard pass for me OP, unless they give you some fire sale price due to it.

[canterplease]

@StormyDay

read it as that OP was planning on spending more for the import than the norm. Am I reading that wrong? She’s saying just under 58k for a 4 year old with side one. That’s a big risk. Can OP sell this horse for 60, 70k?

She is super quality, 5 years old, and schooling 3’9 with room to spare - very well educated for that age and, so long as sidebone doesn’t become a soundness issue, and so long as no other major issues come up, she should be worth easily six figures after a year of good results on the A circuit. Of course, horses are always a big risk. I’m lucky to have my own facility to keep expenses down and to live in an area where demand and budgets are high. Planning to get a bit more video and have another lameness specialist review before making an offer (asking ~10% discount). All told, they’re asking less than 50K euros which includes import.

[StormyDay]

@canterplease

@StormyDay

read it as that OP was planning on spending more for the import than the norm. Am I reading that wrong? She’s saying just under 58k for a 4 year old with side one. That’s a big risk. Can OP sell this horse for 60, 70k?

She is super quality, 5 years old, and schooling 3’9 with room to spare - very well educated for that age and, so long as sidebone doesn’t become a soundness issue, and so long as no other major issues come up, she should be worth easily six figures after a year of good results on the A circuit. Of course, horses are always a big risk. I’m lucky to have my own facility to keep expenses down and to live in an area where demand and budgets are high. Planning to get a bit more video and have another lameness specialist review before making an offer (asking ~10% discount). All told, they’re asking less than 50K euros which includes import.

Even with import fees 50k is higher than I’d expect to spend on a horse of that age, that training and that issue. 3’9” is not high for Europe, and that’s schooling height, not showing height. I’d still be looking at others. That’s a lot of what if’s.
Add in a year of rated shows to your budget, that’s a lot of money. The side bone won’t go away, you will have to disclose that. Good rated results or not, you will have to take a lower price on your sale because of that sidebone.
My question still stands; as a buyer, why would I purchase your horse when I can buy another with zero issues? What makes yours the one? With something like this, it’s gonna come down to price. With your import, showing, training, shoeing, feed, etc fees, can you go low enough to make me want to even come look at your horse?

[canterplease]

@Farosh

Idk don’t you think you could find a similar horse with a better vetting? Sidebone can be really rough especially for a young horse.

I had hoped I could! But this one is my fifth in a row that I’ve had my vet review xrays and found worse problems & had to pass. This is also the only horse in budget that I’ve found after 4 months searching that has all the quality and character to make a highly competitive hunter to stand up against the big names. I’ve worked for several big trainers, riding and bringing along young sales horses (last horse I owned was zone champion in the natl. derby) so I’ve seen and sat on dozens of very nice ones and… this one just has that extra “wow” factor that’s so rare and tough to come across.

[StormyDay]

Sometimes you just know. This is a good one. There’s no explaining it, and sometimes it doesn’t even look like a good fit on paper, but it’s just right.
Sounds like you’ve made up your mind

[Bluey]

We need to keep in mind that today, buying prospect horses, those diamond in the rough ones, we are in a way more sophisticated market.
Today buyers have so much more go go by, is harder to count on all ducks being in a row when it comes to sell said project and make a profit.

I would not despair because the hunt for those is so competitive and long today, because selling said project later may also be that, with an up front defect to explain away.

OP, excellent idea to get another expert vet’s opinion and then have more to decide if that sidebone is where it may become a problem itself, or a problem to sell horse at a nice profit later.

[EmilyM]

Imho this is a very well priced horse in this market for those qualities.

[AmmyHunter]

@StormyDay

Maybe there are oodles of people lining up to buy 4 year olds with side bone for 60k.

You’d be surprised what people are willing to pay in this market! There are fancy 4 year olds sold for double that, and the price won’t get cut in half for sidebone. And if the horse has the quality that is described, put a few shows on its record and 60 or 70 is easily achievable for a hunter. That assumes it isn’t a weird size, short strided, tough lead change, etc . . . . Hunter prices have been high for a while, and this year they are insane. So glad not to be shopping.