She’s already competed at M Level (German dressage) as a 5 year old? She must indeed have a decently solid education then.
If she’s really competed dressage at M level and competing at L/M jumping successfully. That’s a horse with talent and is fairly accomplished at 5 years old, especially if she has placings at those levels. If she had such strong talent, potential for more, and is a pleasant ride, I don’t think something such as sidebone would warrant a discount. Especially of her breeding is good and would make her desirable for that too.
How would a 5 year old have competed this much during COVID? Everything was cancelled all of last year until spring of this year, then they had the ehv-1 outbreak with the strain from Spain. I call BS. FYI, I import quite a bit as well.
I bought a 7yr old last year that had been doing the 1.30. She had placed well in the L and was doing the MA before covid hit. I just don’t think any of these 5 yr olds we are seeing this year have much show mileage. I work with one person in Germany primarily and they’re the first ones to say that.
Just like I just mentioned, how would a 5 yr old have done this much between the 4/5yr old year in Germany with covid plus the shutdown because of the ehv-1 Spanish strain? I do a lot of importing too and have very good relationships, 5 year olds this year we are seeing with very very limited show miles (just because of the shutdowns). So you’ve seen the Rimondo results? I call BS on the miles, personally.
Hm. I don’t know. I live in Germany. Some of the professionals were allowed to compete before it opened to amateurs/everyone again. However, last year was dead in the water. So the horse would’ve had to come along very quickly. The trainer at my stable has a 5 year old who has gotten out to at least 7 or 8 competitions already this here. She’s just stepping up to L jumping now though.
I’ve had the opportunity to go to 4 dressage competitions thus far with 2 more planned in the next weeks.
The local “big names” have gotten out quite a bit and it would be reasonable to have a 5 year old with some L jumping placements by now. I can’t see how there would be M dressage placements (US 3rd level equivalent) already in a 5 year old, but I’m also a bit slower with my training, but I train for myself, not for resale or as a pro.
So it’s possible to get some mileage this year. I don’t live in the most horsey area, but there’s some competitions running. Much more jumping than dressage in this area though.
Edited to add: I would want to see the actual competition record (easy to look up) regardless.
Meh, sidebone doesn’t turn me off. I just bought a 5 year old with sidebone on both fronts. My trainer, my vet, and the vet performing the PPE all thought it was a “moderate risk” but not a deal breaker. All three said that sidebone in and of itself is not so sinister. Of course he could eventually become unsound due to the sidebone, but it’s no more than the risk of him developing an unsoundness from something else. In your shoes, in this market, if you love the horse, I’d absolutely move forward. I don’t think sidebone will get you a huge discount (if it were ringbone, that’d be totally different). But maybe you can get a little wiggle room.
She competed L dressage this year when shows opened up, with a different rider (not the owner). Has done three L dressage tests with very good results. To me, L dressage is rough equivalent of American 3rd level, though I see how one could argue that M dressage is the “true” equivalent.
Also this summer, owner did 3 shows at A** jumping level. In August/Sept of 2020 she was doing both A dressage and A jumping with the owner in a handful of youngster classes. I suppose this was during a period of Covid reopening. This is all coming straight off Rimondo
Good grief, how high do y’all want this 5 year old to be jumping? I’m all good seeing it can jump around some 3’9" but I definitely don’t need it to have a dozen shows at height under its belt. Actually, would prefer it didn’t. Not just because of the wear & tear, but because of all the work that will need to be undone to make it a hunter.
Under 50k with import costs on something that can probably go show 3’ Green shortly after landing? And a nice one at that? And the only PPE pause is sidebone? I have no doubt there are others in line. Those stakes may be too high for your comfort but they are by not particularly high stakes, especially in this market.
You “see how one could argue that M dressage is the true equivalent” I’m sorry but if you have a L* horse that isn’t a 3rd level dressage horse. There’s a difference in training and value (sales price). L** would be a bit closer. M would then include flying changes (dressage quality - correct) as is required in 3rd level. There are a few other little things but I can’t say I have a 3rd level horse when I have a 2nd level horse. Yes, I’m a bit picky about this and not looking to argue, just stating how it is. L is “easy” (literally - that’s how it’s defined, essentially. Not just my opinion) and I do feel as though any horse should be capable of a L test. So if she’s got that down, it’s a good foundation.
A** would be 1.05m and can begin to include a Liverpool fence IIRC…and certain width is specified. Again, also a good/respectable foundation for a 5 year old.
A 5 year old with A** placements and L* dressage placements that has good character and is nice for an amateur to ride, should fetch a good price and be a nice horse for you. I have mixed feelings about the side bone in a 5 year old, but it is far from being a disaster or deal breaker for most.
Following up in case anyone is curious: The mare is absolutely lovely, has been 100% sound since we imported her (knock on wood) and is even further along in her training than we had anticipated. Due to the x-rays, I made an offer at about 6% less than asking and it was accepted. We are very happy with our decision and may or may not end up reselling her as she is such a nice match for me personally.
My takeaways & advice for others in a similar situation: Trust your vet, do your research on any health findings and be prepared for maintenance like injections down the road, speak to others who have worked with the same seller about their experience, and analyze the existing show record. Watch as many videos as possible. Don’t be afraid to ask for more video of lungeing, jogging, hand walking, grooming, clipping, etc. if buying remotely. Insure the horse for full purchase value plus import, if you can.
I paid nearly that much for a horse with a bone chip. Like the OP, I had a “feeling” about the horse. I sent the radiographs to an orthopedic surgeon to review them prior to purchase. I had to declare this on insurance and the issue and all issues related directly to it are considered pre-existing and are not covered. You need to declare any findings or you are committing insurance fraud.
The difference is that my horse was not a resale project and I went into the purchase knowing we would give him a forever home if anything went south. I also knew we could remove the chip with surgery if it became a problem.
I’ll be going to Naples to collect my HOTY award for the horse in 2 weeks. He’s won more than I ever believed to be possible. Amazing horse.
Sometimes you just know.
But…
I would have never bought this horse with this issue of the goal was to resell him. I realize a chip is a different than side one, but they share one thing: not perfect radiographs. A chip can be removed, however.
My former trainer successfully flipped imports and I watched potential buyers take x-Ray after x-Ray looking for issues (and always finding them) to dicker down a price. Even on a regional HOTY winning children’s horse with a huge record in FL. People are nuts about requiring perfection. It’s a shame. I’m sure many are missing out on great horses, much like I would have if I didn’t take a leap of faith.
I did end up removing the chip as a preventative measure. This time we took an MRI which showed all kinds of findings that the 2D radiographs did not. The radiologist told me he doesn’t understand how so many people spend $$$$$ on horses without the MRI - I have to say I somewhat agree. What looks clean on a 2D view can actually be an issue in 3D. Additional 3D views showed that it would be advisable to remove it.
The vet called mid surgery to tell me there was a small 2 mm fragment in addition to the larger one that was removed and asked me what my plans were for the horse. I told him the horse wasn’t going anywhere and described his success. Vet was relieved because he didn’t find it to be an issue and even commented about his awareness of the need for clean radiographs in a sale. Yes, people are nuts about clean radiographs.
If I was this buyer (OP) I’d take the next step on diagnostic films and get the real picture of what is going on. Also, if the sidebone is unilateral, then WHY would be my next question.
I do think people can be a bit “nuts” with x-rays, but we’re not all made of money (a $50k horse is a huge expense for many) and just want to increase our odds of having a sound horse with a long career. Sure it’s a horse, so anything can happen, but I really think it’s people wanting to protect themselves, both financially and from future heartache/headache. Sure they might miss out on a great horse, but that’s their personal decision. Just as it’s someone’s personal decision to buy a horse with a bone chip.
I do think people get picky, but I can completely understand why. I get many x-rays on a PPE myself, and can be particular because the one time I wasn’t and “settled for a minor issue” it came around and bit me in the arse. So, personal experience shapes our views as well. It’s great to hear success stories and I can understand both sides, but risk taking and assessment can be a personal thing, and that’s fine.
Exactly so that entire reply to my post wasn’t necessary because a chip and side bone are two very different things and I was referring to the OPS issue. Never mentioned needing perfection either.
You missed the point about the need for CLEAN RADIOGRAPHS for sale horses and that a CHIP can actually be removed. I stand by the fact that I would not purchase a sale horse with a pre-existing issue.
But hey, snarkiness and nattiness to strangers on the internet is your jam so carry on with your bad self…
I’m sorry but if you have a L* horse that isn’t a 3rd level dressage horse. There’s a difference in training and value (sales price). L** would be a bit closer. M would then include flying changes (dressage quality - correct) as is required in 3rd level. There are a few other little things but I can’t say I have a 3rd level horse when I have a 2nd level horse. Yes, I’m a bit picky about this and not looking to argue, just stating how it is. L is “easy” (literally - that’s how it’s defined, essentially. Not just my opinion) and I do feel as though any horse should be capable of a L test. So if she’s got that down, it’s a good foundation.