Importing from Canada / Buying sight unseen

[ophelia92]

Longtime lurker here hoping for some new perspectives from the wealth of COTH knowledge!!

After leasing for years, I’m finally looking for my own which, of course, has proven much more difficult than I expected. After looking at unsound OTTB after unsound OTTB, I’ve upped my budget a bit for a nice-ish young TBxWB, and I’ve found what looks like a sound, sane, good-moving, cute-jumping mare… but she’s in Canada. My trainer likes her, my farrier likes her, I think she looks adorable, but the idea of buying my first horse sight unseen AND from another country is making me a bit nervous. I can afford to put her in full training once she’s here if she is not as advertised, but at the same time I can’t afford to just throw away the $20k purchase price if something goes drastically sideways and she truly is worthless.

So, here are my concerns:

1. How much recourse do you really have, as a foreign buyer, if this is some sort of scam? I know I’m being totally paranoid, but she’s listed on an online auction site which does give me pause. They’ve been very communicative and pleasant to deal with, but I haven’t heard of anyone buying a horse in this manner? Also, if I do pay with PayPal, how much protection do I really have (I would assume – not much)
2. Am I totally crazy to even be considering buying not just a horse, but my first horse sight unseen? I tend to know what I like when I see it, and there are not a lot of nice horses in my budget in my area (California) but still… it just sounds crazy
3. She does a little head tilt before a fence in the sales video which my trainer thinks is due to her being overfaced (she had 120 days last summer, winter off, and then 60 days under saddle before being listed to be started over fences). If I buy her, we’d go back to basics and I wouldn’t even consider jumping her until my trainer considered us rock solid on the flat, and it could also just be her teeth need to be done, but still. What’s the worst case scenario?
4. I’ve read horror stories on COTH of imports going awry and of horses being stuck in limbo while the owner is out tens of thousands of dollars. I know the Canada import process is way easier than from Europe but still. What can go wrong? Horse is turned away at the border and sent back to the seller?
5. While they say she’s eligible for Zangersheide (her sire is reg Z), she is not currently registered. Is this a red flag? If she were eligible, why wouldn’t the buyers spend the ~$500 to get her DNA tested and registered? At the end of the day I don’t really care much about reg/non reg, I just want a nice horse, but if things did go wrong and I did have to sell her, how much would that effect her price either way?
6. I’m considering finding a trainer local to her and paying them to try her and take photos/video just to see how they match up to the sales media. I don’t have any local connections but I do know of a local trainer from social media who appears to be honest that I’m thinking of reaching out to. I mainly want to verify the ad, but obviously it’s not super useful if I don’t know the trainer and they don’t know me/how I ride/what I like.

I really like this mare; she has a sweet face, she’s 16h, gorgeous bay, good conformation, looks forward but not too hot… but this does all seem a bit crazy. I’m a good enough rider to deal with some horse silliness, I’m pretty athletic, and I’m committed to doing right by the animal (whether that means paying for diagnostics or putting the horse in full training until I can handle it), but at the end of the day I’m just an AA jumping around 2’6 hunter courses at local shows just trying to be a better rider and a better horsewoman.

And finally, I WOULD fly up to see her but my passport just expired, and like an idiot I haven’t renewed it because I didn’t think I’d be traveling internationally for awhile. Hopefully this isn’t too many questions, and I’m crossing my fingers that the wisdom of COTH will help me decide what to do!

[clanter]

@ophelia92

Am I totally crazy to even be considering buying not just a horse, but my first horse sight unseen?

As a sincere reply, yes we have bought sight unseen but we knew the breeder and knew the stock they produced.

Would I purchase the horse you outlined? No. Too many red flags for me … first being an online auction, second horse is still available in these times of anything that moves is sold with little effort

I guess if I were in southern California with $25k burning a hole in my pocket and wanted to gamble I would go to Las Veges

[Saddle_Search]

I’m in Eastern Canada and the one thing on your list that really irritates me is No. 5. If the horse is eligible for registration, WHY have they not registered the horse? To me that just says ‘LAZY’ and that in itself would be a no for me. What else have they left unfinished? or ‘holes’ in the starting of this horse.

[Scribbler]

I would say if the horse is up for sale not registered then there’s a glitch like the dam is not approved.

Crossing the border in either directiin is easy, you need documentation and vax etc Coggins, but there is no quarantine for horses. Competitors and trail riders and clinic participants went back and forth all the time pre Covid.

I dont know anything about online auctions sites. I assume it’s based in Ontario. Maybe COTH members from Eastern Canada can comment on that.

[outside_leg]

Sight unseen doesn’t bother me (though for a first horse, you really have to check your comfort level with sitting on a horse that may not go the way you expect or prefer). However, there are some red flags.

The only auctions I’ve seen with good quality horses are run by a registry and feature only their premium stock. Other auctions…I’ve seen a few of those horses when they landed stateside, and I was less than impressed.

And I also tend to assume the worst in sellers I don’t know personally. If the horse isn’t registered, I’d assume she can’t be registered. And yes, you will take a price hit if you can’t prove her breeding.

As for the head tilt…could be she’s over faced. Could be there’s something physical. You can’t rule it out without a PPE.

If you’re serious about this, make sure you get x-rays and ideally a set of flexions that are videoed so your vet can review. But I’d keep looking. I’ve seen nice ones overseas for that budget. You may have to stretch for the shipping, but you’d likely be able to find something from a more reputable seller with better resale value.

[Tha_Ridge]

Sight unseen doesn’t bother me a bit. As of this week, I’ll have bought four that way in 2021 alone. All have been as described, and that’s across all price points—low-four figures all the way into the mid-fives and imported.

BUT what does concern me about this horse is the price and the fact it hasn’t sold yet if it is what you say. Anything with a drop of WB blood is commanding $20k+ easily at the moment, as people clamor for totally garbage horses just because they’re warmblood and the market’s hot. This horse is underpriced for the market and that concerns me.

By the way, if you do it, don’t pay via PayPal—buying/selling animals is against its T&Cs. Use Wise or a legitimate wire transfer/certified funds.

[Against_All_Odds2]

Where is the horse? Maybe a general area. Many of us are Canadian and can go take a peek or maybe know the seller

[Jealoushe]

Where are you located? Feel free to PM me if in Ontario and I can give some advice on the seller if I know them, or go see the horse for you.

[GoodTimes]

I’m also in Ontario and have a number of contacts in Alberta. Feel free to send me a PM and we might be able to gather some more info.

[vxf111]

Sight unseen in the abstract doesn’t bother me but this scenario sounds a little weird. Most any well bred warmblood of riding age that is selling via auction has some hole in it that prevents an easy private sale and if they’re not disclosing the hole-- I’d be worried it was something that would be a dealbreaker for me. That plus them asking you to pay via PayPal is super weird. What kind of a PPE are you able to get through this auction? Unless it’s a soup to nuts clinic-style vetting with films and anything else you want-- I would pass (assuming $20k is more than you can afford to sink and lose).

Also how does your farrier like a horse s/he has never seen? Hard to judge feet by photos/video. Unless they have posted films of the feet or really detailed info beyond what I would expect from an auction…

[funky_bunny]

Having been in a similar situation (and bought the horse!), I wouldn’t do it. Or, if I did do it, I would go into it with zero expectations. Ofc, that’s virtually impossible when it is your first horse, your only horse, and $20k of your own money.

A cheap warmblood already started under saddle, especially over fences, may not be sketchy, but it probably is. It could be she’s trickier than the average green horse, is not sound, or wasn’t well-started and needs the kind of “do-over” that is harder than starting from scratch.

If you had another horse to ride while taking on a project, if she were a freebie or at least less hassle to get to you, and if you had experience finding and fixing holes in horses that someone else trained, it would be an easier choice.

[ophelia92]

Thank you all SO MUCH for your advice and insights!!! It seems the consensus is that this is a sketchy situation, and I agree. If everything had felt fine from the get-go, then I wouldn’t have felt the need to post here. If I could afford to burn 20k or if I were experienced enough to handle almost anything it would be one thing, as the last poster pointed out, but neither is true. I’d rather spend slightly more for less of a risk.

By the way, I did some digging and the horse has been listed for at least 2 months, which seems like an awfully long time these days. She’s in BC, so pretty close to the border, too, so pretty odd that she hasn’t sold. All in all, too many red flags.

And re: the farrier question, I have the most magically talented farrier (who is also my SO) and he can fix literally almost anything. He was pretty confident from the videos that she was unlikely to have any major problems he couldn’t fix, but we were planning to get x rays etc as part of the PPE.

And to those of you who offered to check her out for me, thank you! I do think there are too many red flags at this point to waste anyone’s time, but I really appreciate it.

[Scribbler]

OK, I did me some Googling, since the horse is local to me.

My first thought was that I am not at all familiar with the online auction format in Canada, and indeed I think I found the horse and the website, and they say that the website is very new and the first of its kind in Canada, so I’m betting that is the one you saw! There is no information whatsoever on who is behind it. It’s a nice website but that means nothing.

My sense looking at the FB page is they have a lot of horses from Western Canada that are “Canadian Warmblood” types, meaning a dam of uncertain background with a registered WB sire. I notice that the mare Radiant is listed as “grade WB” with a Z sire in June, and “can be registered as Z” now.

They also say on FB that their top sale in their last timed auction was $20,000. So I think they may be dealing with the lower end of WB.

That doesn’t mean they aren’t good serviceable horses. But they aren’t really my type, so I’m a bit biased there. I don’t however think you are going to be getting a $US 50,000 horse for $CAN 20,000 on this site.

Anyhow, the mare I saw looked very green and fussed a bit going to the jumps, I didn’t see head tilting per se so I might be totally on the wrong horse. Bay with a blaze. She was a bit sucked back on the flat. Looked like a good soul, though.

Western Canada is very rural and mostly cowboy country, but there is a strong jumper market between Thunderbird in BC and Spruce Meadows in Calgary, lots of non-elite jumping going on as well as the big time. With AI it’s easy to breed name WB stallions to TB or draft cross mares upcountry where land and carrying costs are cheap, and WB will sell for much more than QH of comparable quality. So there’s a certain amount of small breeder/ranch bred lower end WB around.

These horses end up registered as Canadian Warmblood or Canadian Sport Horse, depending on if the dam has any documentation.

[Scribbler]

Doing some more Googling, the majority of the horses on this particular auction site are from a Holsteiner breeder way up in Northern BC, and the two horses I found in southern BC were at the same facility. So I wonder if this auction site is really mostly a sales site for one breeder hoping to add on outside horses over time?

Anyhow, I found another young mare on this site that I actually kind of like, at least when she is at liberty (green horses tend to suck back under saddle) that has Holsteiner bloodlines but isn’t registered. Chestnut, $16,000.

I might be way off base and on another auction site altogether than the one OP found.

I think these are OK medium quality horses but the prices are high for what they are, and 100% sure they have training holes that need to be addressed.

[Daventry]

Like Scribbler, I also know the Canadian site where the mare is being sold (if it is the bay with the blaze). As far as I understand, it is a young trainer in British Columbia, that created the website last year to try and do live auctions…or at least make the appearance of live auctions. Over the last year, they have been mostly advertising ponies. How many of them have actually been sold at auction versus simply sold privately and made to look like auction format, I don’t know. The concept has been done before. It rarely works unless you are a big company like Professional Horse Services LLC…as it’s tough to have recourse if things go sour after the purchase when you are dealing with a small company or individual who may not be prepared for all of the hiccups that can occur with horse sales & purchases. In a nutshell, I believe the website is basically a consignment sales page for a local trainer.

I notice the head tilt more on the flat. It may simply be that the mare needs her teeth done. If they haven’t, that’s a bit of a red flag for me as a knowledgeable trainer should be requiring any new horses coming in for under saddle training and/or consignment to have their teeth floated so that training issue are not being created.

In regards to the training history that you noted and the greenness the horse appears to display in the video, I personally would not be jumping the mare at those heights, if at all. She appears to be hollow, throwing her head, nervous in the mouth, swapping her lead in front of the jump, and still needs to learn how to relax through the topline, push from behind, and accept the bit. I’m with you that I feel you would need to go back to working on the flat and leave the jumping until she is broke and has more confidence. In my opinion, 20k is a lot to spend on a project.

As others have said, importing from Canada is super easy. There are no quarantine requirements, the horse just needs health papers signed & stamped with 30 days of travel and a negative Coggins within the last 6 months.

I don’t necessarily consider the lack of registration a red flag. In my opinion, there are warmblood breeders in Alberta & BC who simply have a backyard breeding program, for lack of a better word, and don’t bother registering. (Realistically, this happens everywhere, but I find it seems to happen more frequently in Western Canada). That being said, if she is currently unregistered, be prepared that future registration may not possible for one reason or another.

How much recourse do you have as a foreign buyer? I am not an equine attorney so cannot offer you any legal advice but in my experience as an equine expert witness, things can get complicated and costly when you are dealing with a purchase gone wrong in a foreign country. The old adage is true, buyer beware.

[Scribbler]

I dont know what the market is doing now, but 5 years ago a greenbroke unregistered WB cross would be in the $5000 to $10,000 range. For $20,000 you would expect a show record and scope above 3 feet. I realize prices have gone up and I dont fault anyone trying to get into the higher priced American markets. But it still looks high to me.

[vxf111]

You can’t buy a sound rideable WB for $20k now unless it’s got some weird hole

[Longview]

You’ve gotten a lot of very good information here that I will try to not repeat, but I wanted to say that having someone else ride the horse isn’t a bad idea when buying sight unseen. I think that it’s useful to get an idea of how many quirks the video rider is covering up or causing. I’ve bought several horses sight unseen off videos (lower price point in case things come up, and I’m a fairly capable rider) and I like to find the seller’s website and get a good idea for their riding style and way of doing business. A little time on their website, YouTube, and social media can often give you a good idea of whether they rush horses along in training as well as if they have habits such as hanging on every horse’s mouth, causing fussiness. Often times their social media such as fb and ig will have a lot more behind the scenes info.

[Scribbler]

@vxf111

Hmm. I am not horse shopping and have never even window shopped for a WB.

But I Googled warmbloods for sale in BC and turned up Equine Now and Kijiji and a couple other sites. There weren’t many horses for sale, period. I dont know how rideable any of the horses were or how well bred. But the back country small breeder WBs were not listed for significantly more. Some for 15,000 and some for $25,000. These are horses in the same level as the OP was looking at.

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

Canadian Warmbloods are a breed, registered under the Animal Pedigree Act. They must have a verifiable pedigree to be registered as Canadian Warmbloods. They are not ‘unknowns’ or of uncertain backgrounds - they have to be registered somewhere and have a pedigree.

Quality can vary. You can get everything from essentially a holsteiner (no registry available in North America so many are registered Canadian Warmblood) to an interesting attempt at breeding. One of the most beautiful thoroughbred mares I have ever seen in my life was presented at a Canadian Warmblood inspection many years ago. She was accepted, with top marks, and I’m sure has produced some stunning sport horses by now!

Some background information for those interested.