In a sale, what percentage should the trainer get? The owners?

[aGoodHoss23]

I thought this would be a good place to ask this question.

I’m about to move this horse to a new location to prep him to be sold. I’ve been working with him on and off for about 3 years. I’m the only one who has worked with him. The owners are not involved in his training at all. They just pay for his care. He doesn’t get any supplements or special shoeing or anything. Basically bare bones care. Just hay and grain and whatnot and the occasional farrier visit.

Right now he is not ride-able but once I move him to this new and better location, we can put him on a program where he gets solid at W/T/C and becomes less spooky. When I first started working with this horse he would not let you touch him.

The new place I’m moving him to, I will be handling all expenses.

So all that being said, I’m wondering what percentage of the sale price I should take (as the trainer) and what percentage the owners should get? This is my first time facilitating a sale.

[KateKat]

well, from what I’ve seen a trainer will take anywhere from nothing to 15% on a sale, depending on the situation. This does not involve any training or expenses.

Your situation sounds a little more involved-are the owners going to be paying you for your training time (however long that takes) and why are you paying for expenses? Are you thinking you should get a bigger piece of the sales pie as “reimbursement” for your work/out of pocket expenses? I would want to work that out with the owners before facilitating the sale.

[CHT]

I am having trouble seeing how you will get ahead with this…he doesn’t sound like a high value/quick sale…, but what I have done with training sales, is set a base amount the owner will get, and then split anything over and above that 50/50. Of course in these instances the owners were paying for feed, vet and farrier, so my investment was time and advertising…sounds like you are investing more than that.

[BeeHoney]

The answer is, it depends. Like CHT, I’m am having trouble visualizing a horse that has had three years of training but isn’t rideable selling for enough money to pay for approximately three years of training costs anytime in the near future.

Because training and care costs are so expensive and could in quite a few instances approach or exceed the value of the horse itself and because horses are such fragile and unpredictable animals, many pros will not take horses on this type of arrangement. It simply isn’t generally a good recipe for profit except with high dollar horses.

My advice is to not enter this arrangement, but if you did, I would estimate what you think the final price of the horse will be, estimate the value of how much training/care you are going to have to put into this horse, and then figure out what percentage that would be and go with that. Recognize of course that the horse could be very difficult to sell or could go lame and become unsellable. Consider advertising costs and the time you will need to spend meeting buyers. Get everything in writing so that the owner cannot change their mind and take the horse away from you mid-training without reimbursing you for your time and expenses accrued so far.

Just a warning–some owners are very unrealistic about these types of arrangements and don’t want to part with a large percentage of their horse’s sale price and are simply looking for a way to get a cheap deal on training.

[gottagrey]

The owners get what their asking price is or what they agree to sell the horse for You/trainer get what the owners and you/trainer have agreed upon. In the OP’s situation it sounds as though you are undertaking much of the expense of the care and training of the horse are the owners/sellers paying for this or is this your expense. Whatever you do get in writing

[aGoodHoss23]

what i pay in board for this horse at the new facility will be made up for in my percentage that I take from the sale. I’m thinking I should take at least half. What do you think? The reason i’ve been working with him on and off for three years is because I’ve been at college and haven’t had time and have taken some summers off

[aGoodHoss23]

The reason i’ve been working with him on and off for three years is because I’ve been at college and haven’t had time and have taken some summers off

[ccr0009]

In our areas "trainers’’ just take 15% even when they have horses in daily training with them.For you it may be more about the experience to bring along the horse which may offer more value than the monetary payout.
Otherwise I would suggest a signed contract. Owner usually prefer larger than 50% and it sounds like up until this time you’ve had relatively little limited work with him through school. Be willing to compromise that they may want a larger share, they’ve been paying expenses for the past x years.
If determined to continue working with horse could you a. have them keep paying expenses or b. buy horse at their cost and turn him/her around yourself?

[MeghanDACVA]

How much do you think he will REALISTICLY bring? I know people who think their ordinary barely broke horses are worth 5 figures when in reality they are probaby only worth, at the very best, a couple thousand.
How much are you paying per month?
How many months are you doing this?

Here some make believe math:
Say you pay $500 a month, on average, in board, shoeing and what-nots.
You have the horse for 10 months getting him saleable and sold.
You have SPENT $5,000.
For you to get 50% and break even (not make anything on the deal) the horse will have to bring $10,000.

See where I, and others, are going?

[findeight]

This situation is an unrealistic mess on both sides.

Trainers take an agreed upon percentage of the final sale price and owners pay for board and training. Years ago, horses were taken on consignment where owner paid nothing and trainer took costs plus commission out of sale proceeds giving the owner whatever was left. Very rare to see any kind of consignment deals these days simply because it costs so much to keep them. Anything over 3-4 months of costs is more then the average horse with no specifically developed specialty skills will bring.trainer does not even get costs back let alone cut a check for owner.

The value of an average green broke horse going W-T-C with no show mileage or unusual talents, color or bloodline is just about equal to 90 days board/routine vet/farrier. Maybe not even that. You won’t get training expenses out of it in today’s marketplace.

You need to get a calculator out here. How much is board each month? Farrier? What do you value you services at per ride? What about the time grooming? What’s that worth?

List these values BEFORE taking on a consignment sale horse promising the owner profit over expenses Don’t take one on then ask how it works and what to charge.

Offhsnd, these average greenies sell for 1500-2500 at the absolute best. You are already behind. Only if something is unusual or special or it’s coming from a well known owner/trainer with good reputation and known training ability would it go for much more then that…and even those take many months to sell.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=findeight;7623193]
This situation is an unrealistic mess on both sides.

Trainers take an agreed upon percentage of the final sale price and owners pay for board and training. Years ago, horses were taken on consignment where owner paid nothing and trainer took costs plus commission out of sale proceeds giving the owner whatever was left. Very rare to see any kind of consignment deals these days simply because it costs so much to keep them anything over 3-4 months of costs more then the average horse with no specifically developed specialty skills will bring.trainer does not even get costs back let alone cut a check for owner.

The value of an average green broke horse going W-T-C with no show mileage or unusual talents, color or bloodline is just about equal to 90 days board/routine vet/farrier. Maybe not even that. You won’t get training expenses out of it in today’s marketplace.

You need to get a calculator out here. How much is board each month? Farrier? What do you value you services at per ride? What about the time grooming? What’s that worth?

List these values BEFORE taking on a consignment sale horse promising the owner profit over expenses Don’t take one on then ask how it works and what to charge.

Offhsnd, these average greenies sell for 1500-2500 at the absolute best. You are already behind.[/QUOTE]

That.

Seems that you got a horse to ride thru all that time.

I am not sure you did any real training, as in a horse in a serious, consistent, professional training program, being ridden a few months and then shown and brought along to sell in a reasonable period of time, generally months, not over three years.

Those are called “project horses”, I think.

Now, if the owner had the horse brought along to then show, that would have been different.

I would put the horse with a professional barn/trainer and let them take care of the sale.

You got years to play with him, someone else was paying the cost for you.
That is fine, but unless it was in a contract beforehand that this was a horse for you to train and be paid for the training as it went along, I don’t think you can now say you trained it, I want to be paid for that.

Whatever you do now, be sure to get your t’s crossed and i’s dotted well.
Go forward with a firm contract on what you both agree to, before you do anything else or pay any expenses on a horse that belongs to someone else.

Good of you to ask those questions, seems that you had some kind of loose agreement there, that now is going to be a bit hard to pin down.
If both parties are decent people, it will be fine, you will get some out of it, so will the owners.
If not and you end up on the short end, chalk it to experience.

Good luck!

[HungarianHippo]

This does not make sense as a money-making venture, at all. (like most every horse-related activity). Paying the horse’s board only makes financial sense 1) if you reap the ENTIRE benefit of the training you put into him, and 2) every single month you have this horse under training, his value goes up enough to offset the board.

If it’s primarily a learning/growth opportunity and the money is not important, there are less risky ways to get that learning (get an unpaid working student job with a professional trainer, for example)

Assuming you’re set on this deal / this horse, I think I’d offer to train him @ $xxx flat rate per month. Owners continue to pay board. Establish a “floor” sale price, and if he sells below that floor, owners get it all (you just get your monthly rate). If he sells above, you get a cut of the “excess” sale price.

My next Plan B assumes that 1) you are being realistic about your training experience and capabilities, 2) there is a market for this horse in your area, and 3) you have the finances to support a horse until it sells. Those are some really big assumptions and you need to be very clear-eyed about whether they’re true.

Assuming yes, it’s time to think strategically. The owners are faced with an un-sellable horse that will keep costing them every month and every year. They’ve asked you to sell the horse, so clearly they want out from under this problem they have. That is the key phrase–they have a problem, which is that they own a horse they don’t want, and can’t ride, and can’t sell because it’s unrideable. The most direct route to solving this problem is NOT negotiating a complicated training arrangement. The most direct solution is to buy the horse from them at its current value. This stops the continuing expense. They don’t get any “credit” for having kept this poor beast alive all these years-- sorry, but that’s called basic humanity. They decided not to train it, therefore they have a beast with no value. Their mistake.

I’d research the going rate at the nearest auction, and offer a few hundred over that. You have no better negotiating position / leverage than you do right now. Because their options are 1) send the horse to auction and get less than what you’re offering, or 2) keep paying to support this untrained beast they don’t want.

[HungarianHippo]

Forgot to ask-- what prevents you from training the horse at his current facility–where the owners pay for his care? No need for a fancy ring just to install W-T-C buttons. Or if their place is completely unsafe, is there a stable where you could pay an arena fee and trailer in?