In floor heat

Yes I know this has been discussed at length in the past. I have a unique question. I think I know the answer, but there certainly are some handy and well-informed people here.

I have an old barn I am renovating in to a foaling barn. There is currently a concrete aisle way and no concrete in the stalls. I’ve been toying with the idea of putting in in-floor heat since winter goes well in to May in my neck of the woods (I don’t foal super early but for crap sakes, they gotta hit the ground at some point). I initially wanted to put the heat in the stall floors since I’ll be pouring concrete in them this summer; concrete is non-negotiable, I’ve had problems with clostridiosis due to previous livestock on the property, and I’ve become a germafobe. After reading several threads about how nasty in-floor heat in the stalls is, I’m leaning towards not doing that. But perhaps put it in the aisle.

Now to the question. Is there any way to drill in to current concrete aisle to run the water tubes? I’m thinking no but it’s worth asking. Or perhaps it might be better to remove the current concrete, and just pour new when the heat tubes are installed?

And before this turns in to a debate on whether or not horses need heat, that’s not what my question is :wink: Question specifically is regarding drilling through current concrete and if anyone has done that before.

I would look into electric radiant instead of hot water radiant - unless you have a boiler in your barn?

I have a hot water heating system in my house, so when an extension was built (prior to our buying) - they put in some radiant floor heat using the hot water system. It works great…until it doesn’t. And then it’s not just an issue of not having heat in the floor, but having a major plumbing problem. They can (and do) freeze if you’re not careful (e.g. a cold windchill froze mine once) and then it burst and we lost pressure to the whole house. What a disaster!

So, if you’re looking to install new - I’d look at the electric systems instead of water. This isn’t for a barn but some info: http://www.familyhandyman.com/heating-cooling/electric-vs-hydronic-radiant-heat-systems/view-all

[QUOTE=S1969;8983056]
I would look into electric radiant instead of hot water radiant - unless you have a boiler in your barn?

I have a hot water heating system in my house, so when an extension was built (prior to our buying) - they put in some radiant floor heat using the hot water system. It works great…until it doesn’t. And then it’s not just an issue of not having heat in the floor, but having a major plumbing problem. They can (and do) freeze if you’re not careful (e.g. a cold windchill froze mine once) and then it burst and we lost pressure to the whole house. What a disaster!

So, if you’re looking to install new - I’d look at the electric systems instead of water. This isn’t for a barn but some info: http://www.familyhandyman.com/heating-cooling/electric-vs-hydronic-radiant-heat-systems/view-all[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the link! I didn’t even realize electric in-floor heat was a thing. I don’t currently have a boiler in the barn but could trench one in (there’s a hydrant about 30 feet from the barn that could be tapped in to). But now that I think of it, trenching and routing under the concrete wall of the barn will likely be an issue.

There’s lots of variables up in the air when it comes to water lines and I really only want to do it once; ie put in automatic watterers or not. Because once I pour concrete in the stalls, that’s it, what’s there is there.

Wind chill and super cold is an issue and I did wonder about the pipes bursting. What a pickled that would be if that happened within the concrete.

I’ll look further in to the electric option. I had thought of hanging industrial radiant heaters, but I can’t seem to get a clean answer on how big of a fire hazard those are. And fire scares the bajeezits out of me.

Now that I think of it, might be able to run heat in the walls, rather than the floor. Hmmm. There are some options here and some thinking to be done…

[QUOTE=BroncoMo;8983077]
Wind chill and super cold is an issue and I did wonder about the pipes bursting. What a pickled that would be if that happened within the concrete.[/QUOTE]

Yup, and since it happened when it was -25F it was a bear to get fixed, but absolutely necessary. It involved a few Salamander propane heaters and a very generous plumber. :no:

Question specifically is regarding drilling through current concrete and if anyone has done that before.

not in a barn but on airport taxiways … I wouldn’t do it in a barn… use overhead radiant heaters instead …otherwise it would be easier (and most likely Cheaper) to remove the existing concrete and replace

"Now to the question. Is there any way to drill in to current concrete aisle to run the water tubes?

Concrete channel cutting saws can be rented. This would pretty labor intensive. The pipes are looped fairly close together so there maybe a lot of channels to cut and the channels filled all by hand.

As other have suggested electric “mats” can be hand for radiant floor heat. This requires a “top coat” of concrete. I would talk with someone that installs this to get an idea how thick the top coat would need to be last the test of time with horses on it.

“They can (and do) freeze if you’re not careful (e.g. a cold windchill froze mine once) and then it burst and we lost pressure to the whole house. What a disaster!”

I have looked into, followed hydronic heating systems for a number of years. I can’t think of any in cold climates that are filled with plain water. Usually a mixture of polyethylene glycol (antifreeze) or other similar “anti freeze” fluids with good heat carrying properties. There are types of oil to the fill the system with also

[QUOTE=clanter;8983224]
not in a barn but on airport taxiways … I wouldn’t do it in a barn… use overhead radiant heaters instead …otherwise it would be easier (and most likely Cheaper) to remove the existing concrete and replace[/QUOTE]

Taxiways?! Wow, perhaps my local little rinky dink airport doesn’t have heated taxiways. The automated weather report is always inaccurate when they say “patchy snow covered taxiways”… it’s usually ice!

Anyways, overhead radiant heaters do concern me some, though I have used some smaller ones unattended with no issue. Any insight as to how safe the big commercial ones are? Does anyone know if they’ll actually catch something on fire (say if bedding or hay were thrown in to the heater by a rowdy horse acting up)? I would like something safe to use unattended; I have no desire to stand out in my barn in the middle of the night at -20 degrees to make sure the heater is safe. I’d probably just bring the baby in and put it on the couch at that point :lol:

[QUOTE=gumtree;8983291]
"Now to the question. Is there any way to drill in to current concrete aisle to run the water tubes?

Concrete channel cutting saws can be rented. This would pretty labor intensive. The pipes are looped fairly close together so there maybe a lot of channels to cut and the channels filled all by hand.

As other have suggested electric “mats” can be hand for radiant floor heat. This requires a “top coat” of concrete. I would talk with someone that installs this to get an idea how thick the top coat would need to be last the test of time with horses on it.

“They can (and do) freeze if you’re not careful (e.g. a cold windchill froze mine once) and then it burst and we lost pressure to the whole house. What a disaster!”

I have looked into, followed hydronic heating systems for a number of years. I can’t think of any in cold climates that are filled with plain water. Usually a mixture of polyethylene glycol (antifreeze) or other similar “anti freeze” fluids with good heat carrying properties. There are types of oil to the fill the system with also[/QUOTE]

Great info, Gumtree! Thank you!

I would assume that drilling that many holes through the existing concrete will end up degrading the structural integrity as well. Though I could probably place the electric heater mats with a new layer of concrete on top. I have plenty of ceiling height to allow for added aisle way depth.

I grew up with infloor heat and I’m pretty sure we ran water through the tubes. But that was many years ago and it seems technology has improved greatly. I had no idea electric infloor heat even existed. Though a type of antifreeze fluid would give me more flexibility as it would be its own closed/isolated system; no need to trench water lines under already existing barn walls.

Thanks again! I have more info to research now :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=gumtree;8983291]
[B]“They can (and do) freeze if you’re not careful (e.g. a cold windchill froze mine once) and then it burst and we lost pressure to the whole house. What a disaster!”

I have looked into, followed hydronic heating systems for a number of years. I can’t think of any in cold climates that are filled with plain water. Usually a mixture of polyethylene glycol (antifreeze) or other similar “anti freeze” fluids with good heat carrying properties. There are types of oil to the fill the system with also[/QUOTE]

I don’t know what mine are filled with, if anything other than water. The room in question is actually an extension over a covered patio, so there is no insulation underneath it (problem #1); and not sure they knew what they were doing when they installed it 30 years ago (problem #2.) One of the lines bringing water to the radiant heat portion actually exited the insulated portion of the house and looped back in to the uninsulated part We think that’s where it froze - on the west side of the house (hit by prevalent wind).

When it was re-plumbed, that section was moved, and no problems since. But I’ve never fully trusted the whole thing since then. It’s likely that a new, properly installed system would be much more reliable.

The downside to electric radiant in the floor is that it’s expensive to run any kind of resistance electric heat from a power perspective. It’s great for “spot” needs, but for larger areas, hydronic is more affordable to run long-term.

[QUOTE=Jim_in_PA;8983814]
The downside to electric radiant in the floor is that it’s expensive to run any kind of resistance electric heat from a power perspective. It’s great for “spot” needs, but for larger areas, hydronic is more affordable to run long-term.[/QUOTE]

So since I already have concrete in place, and I’ve already opened the can of worms in regards to pouring more concrete on top to cover some type of heating, it should be feasible then to lay some type of hydronic tubing (obviously anchor them properly) and then pour concrete on top and that would alleviate the idea of having to drill through the existing aisle way… right?

I know it is a process and not as simple as stated above. But the idea - that I can install heat on top of what is already there - should be doable?

I’m not sure if retrofitting “on top” of existing concrete is done or if it’s even feasible just due to the fact that you’d be adding nearly 3" of height to the floor to do it that way. (at least with hydronic…electric resistance mats are thin, so presumably, the layer of 'crete over them can be thinner)

The normal installation process would involve laying down a layer of foam insulation, tacking in the loops of PEX for the heating and then pouring the concrete.

Lordy… I was just thinking of all the dust a concrete saw would make trying to cut channels for tubing.

I believe there will need to be a moisture barrier, under the electric heat mats.

I also seem to remember that the psi (2000 psi is normal for human residences) needed to support horse, tractor, farrier/vet vehicle, etc. in the barn isle may be problematic with some electric radiant mats and fluid filled tubing systems.

Check with the manufacturer of what ever system you choose.

Thank you all for the ideas and info. Now that I think about it more, I don’t think the current concrete slab is thick enough to drill through. I’m deployed right now so I can’t go out and look :wink: I do have PLENTY of aisle way height to add 3 or more inches of concrete to facilitate this. The building is a steep-pitch gable building with the roofline running perpendicular to the aisle way, rather than same direction. The side wall is AT LEAST 14 feet, if not more. The ceiling is an old-school clear span rafter system; I’m bad at explaining it but there are no trusses or rafters for horses/equipment to hit if the floor is raised a few inches. I actually wouldn’t mind a little more height to the aisle way as the “step up” out of the stalls would help keep bedding where it belongs.

I will absolutely check with the pros on this. I believe my family’s long-time electrician can provide some consultation on who to use. I’ll be checking with him when I get home. Thanks again! Talking some of this out has spurred some ideas :smiley:

Our house has in floor heat from an outside wood burning boiler. It works well. A farm further north than us has their barn floor heated in the same way (they are very rich people). It works for them, I hear. I think they built it from scratch, so not a make over project. They order in logs to run their barn heat system, the wood has to be in 4’ sections. So this system is a possibility, if you are sure you need it. Yes, it has antifreeze in the pipes, it’s expensive. But less than having the pipes freeze and break. The outdoor wood burning boiler has NO fire risk for buildings. I can’t imagine the cost of running this system with electricity, scary. Especially in a barn that is not insulated with thick insulation. Fresh air is necessary for health in a barn, one can’t shut it up to be airtight. Running heat with electricity in the barn is always going to have a fire risk, more so in a barn than other buildings due to dust. Personally, it is NOT something that I would recommend for a barn. I have foaled out some early babies here, one VERY early (a mistake foal), and she went through a very cold winter, -15 C when born, and -30 C for weeks a few days later. She was simply wrapped up in GOOD foal blankets, a wool one first, and hollowfill insulated on top of that. And she was FINE, no problems, happy and warm. It was months before I actually go to SEE her body, just her fuzzy face and legs, and everything else covered with her ski jacket/s. Foal blankets are cheap. In floor heat in the barns is expensive, and labour intensive, IMO. And not necessary.

[QUOTE=NancyM;8986359]
Our house has in floor heat from an outside wood burning boiler. It works well. A farm further north than us has their barn floor heated in the same way (they are very rich people). It works for them, I hear. I think they built it from scratch, so not a make over project. They order in logs to run their barn heat system, the wood has to be in 4’ sections. So this system is a possibility, if you are sure you need it. Yes, it has antifreeze in the pipes, it’s expensive. But less than having the pipes freeze and break. The outdoor wood burning boiler has NO fire risk for buildings. I can’t imagine the cost of running this system with electricity, scary. Especially in a barn that is not insulated with thick insulation. Fresh air is necessary for health in a barn, one can’t shut it up to be airtight. Running heat with electricity in the barn is always going to have a fire risk, more so in a barn than other buildings due to dust. Personally, it is NOT something that I would recommend for a barn. I have foaled out some early babies here, one VERY early (a mistake foal), and she went through a very cold winter, -15 C when born, and -30 C for weeks a few days later. She was simply wrapped up in GOOD foal blankets, a wool one first, and hollowfill insulated on top of that. And she was FINE, no problems, happy and warm. It was months before I actually go to SEE her body, just her fuzzy face and legs, and everything else covered with her ski jacket/s. Foal blankets are cheap. In floor heat in the barns is expensive, and labour intensive, IMO. And not necessary.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the info on the wood burning stove. I had always wondered about those when I hear people reference them.

I have occasional winters like what you describe; negative teens (for a high) for weeks on end. I had one born during a nasty spell like that and we could not get him warm enough. We eventually put up a corral panel stall in the garage, set up a radiant heater above, and would rotate blankets for him and his dam through the dryer to warm them up. I’ve had foals in the cab of a truck for short term emergency situations but that’s obviously not a good long term solution. Even scarier than that colt (my early babies are always born extra fluffy) in that bitter of cold was his dam. As she approached foaling, she would shed out completely. I’m talking show slick. She was also in a bad way during that cold snap. So even that’s where the concern comes from.

Since then I generally foal out in April, but would love to have the flexibility to foal out sooner to better appeal to futurity prospect buyers.

I would probably be better off going with just a hanging radiant heater for spot-heating purposes for the short term only when it’s needed… but I’m terrified of the fire hazard. After 20+ years, I’ve had some really odd and horrific freak accidents in the last couple years. I firmly believe that statistics will eventually catch up if you own enough horses for long enough (as morbid as that sounds). So essentially I’m not wanting to give fire even a remote chance.

Obviously cost will greatly dictate which direction I go; And I’m pretty sure I’ve decided on electric, then hydronic, then nothing, then radiant about 3 or 4 times throughout the course of this thread (see my signature line). So better to talk the kinks out now, rather than drop the money on it to find out it was a horrible idea :winkgrin: Thank you for the input!

Yes you can lay the pipes and then put more concrete on top, that is how they do it when they build new. But they usually insulate underneath the slab or do other things to protect it, especially in very cold climates. I’d have someone come look at your existing slab first and make sure it is good quality to handle the heat stress and the weight. If it’s thin concrete directly on existing dirt it probably won’t be feasible.

As an aside for the use you describe the blower would be better I think. The in floor heating is better for a system that is run a lot and where efficency is so important. It is also slow to warm up a very cold space in an emergency

All the concrete saws I’ve used were circular saws, no dust, because they require water to lube and cool the blades. Makes clean cuts, large pieces. Jack hammer works too. Chipped the heck out of the concrete. Between the two you can rip up that concrete pretty easily.

[QUOTE=snowrider;8986664]
The in floor heating is better for a system that is run a lot and where efficency is so important. It is also slow to warm up a very cold space in an emergency[/QUOTE]

That’s a good point - it is true that they can take an hour or two (or longer) to noticeably change the overall temperature of the room if they have been off. Although obviously if you were lying on the floor you would probably notice it sooner. I agree that if you were to use them, you would pretty much want them running most of the time through the winter or it wouldn’t be worth having them. Definitely depends on the purpose whether it is the right system for you or not.

I boarded at a barn in Alaska that had radiant heat in the aisle way. It was wonderful. It kept the barn just above freezing. No issues other than I wanted to sit on the aisle floor all the time. This was done in the building process but seems like doing the radiant heat mats and a top coat of cement would be one way to retrofit it into your barn.