In-Hand Training - Need Guidance

So, I sent a video of my horse, whose been out of work for about 10 years, to a trainer in another state. His recommendation was not to ride for several months until she became stronger and could lift her back. He also recommended that I do in-hand work with her. He wants her to stretch over her back and also to move her hind quarters out a little bit while lunging. I admit the mare pulls to the outside with her neck while lunging and in both directions!

Are most trainers (those recognized by USDF) trained in in-hand work? Where else can I find guidance on how to do in-hand work correctly?

How do I physically get her to move her hind quarters out at the lunge? I just know the basics of lunging.

Thanks so much!

Well, first ask the trainer who saw the video what he recommends, ask him for details on specific exercises. And ask him for recommendations of trainers in your area, who could at least get you started. IME, these things are best learnt in person; we often get a slightly wrong idea from books or even videos.

In general, I would suggest starting lateral work in hand. How much schooling has she had so far? If she has been off work for ten years, you probably want to just assume you start from scratch.

First you will need to teach her to turn off the forehand, that is shift her haunches away from light pressure. Then you can proceed on to teaching shoulder-in from the ground, on a circle and then on the straight. You want to aim for her to be stepping under her body and crossing her hind legs, which will build up belly muscle. You can also proceed to do this at trot, but it is quickly tiring for the human! You can do this with a snaffle, a halter, or a longing cavesson.

You can also work the horse in a “stretchy walk” by teaching her to lower her head to the snaffle and seek contact. This will develop the neck muscles (there is another current thread on here with a nice photo of a horse in stretchy trot). Again, you could do this in-hand at the trot as well, depending on your own fitness level.

Once you have control of the hindquarters in-hand, you can start longing on a small circle, and ask the horse to shift the hindquarters out, essentially ask for a bit of shoulder in or at least shoulder-fore on the longe line. Then you can gradually let the longe circle expand. Use a cavesson on the longe, with the line clipped to the top of the nose. That way, little tugs on the line will tilt the horse’s head to the inside.

It is very common, totally normal, for an unschooled horse to counter bend the neck to the outside of a circle. You will see them running that way at liberty all the time.

I am not a gadgets person, so I am not recommending sidereins or drawreins; I think you can get all the results you want from in-hand work.

I’ve seen a program of in-hand lateral work and lateral poll flexions make a lot of difference in a horse’s musculature in the course of even a month, maybe 20 minutes or half an hour a day of focused in-hand work at the walk. Although it is slow work, it is really asking them to use themselves correctly and is effort.

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8592484]
Well, first ask the trainer who saw the video what he recommends, ask him for details on specific exercises. And ask him for recommendations of trainers in your area, who could at least get you started. IME, these things are best learnt in person; we often get a slightly wrong idea from books or even videos.

In general, I would suggest starting lateral work in hand. How much schooling has she had so far? If she has been off work for ten years, you probably want to just assume you start from scratch.

First you will need to teach her to turn off the forehand, that is shift her haunches away from light pressure. Then you can proceed on to teaching shoulder-in from the ground, on a circle and then on the straight. You want to aim for her to be stepping under her body and crossing her hind legs, which will build up belly muscle. You can also proceed to do this at trot, but it is quickly tiring for the human! You can do this with a snaffle, a halter, or a longing cavesson.

You can also work the horse in a “stretchy walk” by teaching her to lower her head to the snaffle and seek contact. This will develop the neck muscles (there is another current thread on here with a nice photo of a horse in stretchy trot). Again, you could do this in-hand at the trot as well, depending on your own fitness level.

Once you have control of the hindquarters in-hand, you can start longing on a small circle, and ask the horse to shift the hindquarters out, essentially ask for a bit of shoulder in or at least shoulder-fore on the longe line. Then you can gradually let the longe circle expand. Use a cavesson on the longe, with the line clipped to the top of the nose. That way, little tugs on the line will tilt the horse’s head to the inside.

It is very common, totally normal, for an unschooled horse to counter bend the neck to the outside of a circle. You will see them running that way at liberty all the time.

I am not a gadgets person, so I am not recommending sidereins or drawreins; I think you can get all the results you want from in-hand work.

I’ve seen a program of in-hand lateral work and lateral poll flexions make a lot of difference in a horse’s musculature in the course of even a month, maybe 20 minutes or half an hour a day of focused in-hand work at the walk. Although it is slow work, it is really asking them to use themselves correctly and is effort.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the detailed response; it really helped. After my daughter provided some initial training when she was young, we sent her off for 5 months of professional training. I just watched an in-hand video by the trainer who provided the evaluation. I had also asked him about a local trainer and didn’t receive a response, so I’m thinking he doesn’t know anyone in the area. I’m glad to hear that it takes so little time. I guess I’m off to buy a cavesson. I’ll probably also call a local trainer (there aren’t many in my area) and ask for a lunging lesson. I hope we have the same approach.

Any books to recommend?

It’s out of print, but if you can a copy of “Right from the Start”. It’s a nice entry level book for in hand work.

[QUOTE=tbchick84;8592992]
It’s out of print, but if you can a copy of “Right from the Start”. It’s a nice entry level book for in hand work.[/QUOTE]

I ordered a used copy from Amazon, really excited to get it.

Excellent book from a knowledgeable trainer. http://www.amazon.com/Horse-Training-In-Hand-Modern-Working/dp/1570764093 :slight_smile:

Also the old tried and true book, in English by Jean Froissard,http://www.amazon.com/Education-Horse-Rider-Classical-Horsemanship/dp/1592287980/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1459124545&sr=1-1&keywords=Jean+froissard

In thé book there are detailed descriptions with photos of the poll flexions, and jaw relaxation etc. Froissable explains this on the ground and in the saddle.
Which leads me to ask, why can a good rider not ride her, incorporating periods of flexions, stretching long and low, a little start towards connection, etc…
Anyways, bonne chance à vous et votre jument :slight_smile:

Well, we don’t have a visual of this horse; it is possible she has lost quite a bit of topline. It’s true, once you get these flexions and lateral work and stretching in hand, they translate to work in the saddle. But if the horse has been out of work for so long, it probably is better to treat her as green, and start over from scratch. Both horse and rider can learn new patterns of response on the ground, too.

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8595230]
Well, we don’t have a visual of this horse; it is possible she has lost quite a bit of topline. It’s true, once you get these flexions and lateral work and stretching in hand, they translate to work in the saddle. But if the horse has been out of work for so long, it probably is better to treat her as green, and start over from scratch. Both horse and rider can learn new patterns of response on the ground, too.[/QUOTE]

Agree, we are missing information on this mare.
The OP stated, mare out of work for 10 years. Yes perhaps several months of top line development is best. However, in my past experiences, a really fine, sensitive rider (that is IF one can be found) could incorporate riding into the program sooner. But, true, that is a big if…

[QUOTE=belgianWBLuver;8594271]
Excellent book from a knowledgeable trainer. http://www.amazon.com/Horse-Training-In-Hand-Modern-Working/dp/1570764093 :)[/QUOTE]

This is the book I always recommend, and I feel it’s about as close as you can get to learning from a book.

Kip Mistral is on facebook, and you may be able to email and ask if she’ll review videos and give you feedback, too, or something. That could help you out.

Months of not riding seems silly to me. Early on I would be doing lots of walking trail rides, building up in duration, for mounted work - assuming the horse is ok with that, of course. The best thing you can do for a horse’s soundness and fitness is walk a lot.

A friend of mine bought a fallen-through-the-cracks 8 year old Arabian, very under- developed, who had been to professional training earlier in life but defeated his current owner:). She did the flexions, lateral, in-hand work with him for about a month before putting a saddle on him, and his top line and general muscling improved a lot. Plus she started the job of re-introducing him to the bit correctly, and developed a better relationship with him on the ground. I think those days were very valuable to them, and it helped that he had some muscle and knew what bit was before she started to work on his other issues in-saddle. That said, I don’t think it would need months but watch and evaluate the horse and see when the topline is full enough that you can put a saddle on and the horse can balance OK.

It might be a couple of weeks, a month, or it might be more than that if the horse has in fact atrophied significantly for some reason. I’ve seen people start quite badly atrophied horses under saddle, and it seems to take forever, maybe never, for the back muscles to fill in again.

Yes, handwalking would be good too. Start all over again, basically.

I was in a lesson program with her for 5 months and just dropped out the end of February. Since then, I’ve been lunging and walk/trot. I finally felt her lift her back a few weeks ago.

Sorry, I’m technically challenged and don’t know how to post one of my photos here. The trainer that viewed her video (being lunged and under saddle) said to lunge her, do in-hand work, also to walk her at a brisk pace, and recommended that I don’t ride her for 3 months. He basically explained that while her back isn’t bad (sway-backed) and even though her abs look in reasonable shape, she isn’t strong enough to carry me, her back legs are stiff and behind her so she doesn’t have support for her middle and is hollowing out. Essentially he wanted her to get stronger herself before asking her to carry me. I’m 126 lbs. I view this as starting over with a green horse. She is on the lazy and obstinate side. Are most trainers (those going up the ladder in USDF) taught in-hand work? She’s a large pony, but I don’t want a lot of weight on her (unfortunately that means most male trainers).

Thanks for all the guidance! It’s been really helpful.

Not knowing where you are located and what your financial situation is, I will suggest you research into this program.

https://www.facebook.com/pkinusa/

It is classical dressage based on “developing lightness of the horse”. There are several instructors enrolled in the program who will be able to help you with the flexions and in-hand work and then eventual ridden work.

Here is the thread, us COTHERS are contributing to also, regarding this school:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?488202-Latest-updates-on-the-Philippe-Karl-Légèreté-series-for-Instructors

Just a suggestion among many ideas that may help:

Some of that “lazy, obstinate” behaviour may stem from some sort of pain. Or, it may, like in my horse’s case, stem from being mistreated and ill trained before I had him.
(I took him to a cowboy who with consistent and well thought out groundwork, ridden arena work and trail rides up and down hills, got him fit enough and trained enough to go forward willingly). I continue with his flexions (on the ground and in the saddle) and in hand work to keep him supple and happy, and of course trail rides which he loves.
:slight_smile:

[QUOTE=belgianWBLuver;8597292]
Not knowing where you are located and what your financial situation is, I will suggest you research into this program.

https://www.facebook.com/pkinusa/

It is classical dressage based on “developing lightness of the horse”. There are several instructors enrolled in the program who will be able to help you with the flexions and in-hand work and then eventual ridden work.

Here is the thread, us COTHERS are contributing to also, regarding this school:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?488202-Latest-updates-on-the-Philippe-Karl-Légèreté-series-for-Instructors

Just a suggestion among many ideas that may help:

Some of that “lazy, obstinate” behaviour may stem from some sort of pain. Or, it may, like in my horse’s case, stem from being mistreated and ill trained before I had him.
(I took him to a cowboy who with consistent and well thought out groundwork, ridden arena work and trail rides up and down hills, got him fit enough and trained enough to go forward willingly). I continue with his flexions (on the ground and in the saddle) and in hand work to keep him supple and happy, and of course trail rides which he loves.
:)[/QUOTE]

Thanks so much for your response. I’ve liked the facebook page and am looking forward to learning more. I think there are lots of reasons for her laziness and obstinate behavior, some being out of shape, some being Irish (she’s always been like this), some pain, etc. She’s seen a chiropractor, massage therapist, vet and saddle fitter. I’ll probably have some acupuncture done within the next couple months if she still has pain and isn’t being worked under saddle. Thanks for the help!