"Incident" at Tryon

[ladyj79]

[QUOTE=snaffle1987;8742626]
if you think that is being asked to bend, you are blind. There is a difference in asking a horse to bend and giving a horse severe dental work in the middle of a horse show arena

This is a large, publicly attended horse show. My first concern is the welfare of the horse. my 2nd concern is; how does this look in the eyes of the general public who might be watching this occur. My response to my 2nd concern is “the public would be viewing this as a form of abuse and this could turn into a PETA spectacle.”

There is a time and a place for appropriately…appropriately… disciplining a horse for poor and dangerous behavior. I do not believe this was in the best interest of the sport or the welfare of the animal being competed.[/QUOTE]

Why couldn’t you just share your position to begin with?

Your first post is disingenuous. Just be upfront about your position rather than hoping someone else will do it for you. This is the foundation of honest conversation.

I disagree with your position. If I found myself at a show where a similar incident occured and happened to be near a non-horse savvy person who questioned what they were seeing, id view it as an opportunity to educate.

[AmmyByNature]

[QUOTE=snaffle635;8742640]
Please refer me to the ‘3 whack limit’ rule. I checked the USEF rulebook, but couldn’t find it.[/QUOTE]

I can’t find anything, either - only a general welfare one about excessive use.

But now that I’m thinking about it, it does seem like there was a number limit discussed somewhere. Perhaps in another discipline? Eventing or something? Or it was a proposed rule change that never passed?

[IPEsq]

If 3 smacks per round was all that was allowed, then Southern Pride would no longer be winning Grand Prix. On some of his lazier days, he gets a smack off the ground fairly often. I don’t think its excessive, although I have joked that he maybe wants to go be a derby horse now in his old age with how sloowww he tries to go (and those knees!)

[Foxglove6]

[QUOTE=NCRider;8742625]
Not sure what the OP’s agenda here is other than stirring up nonsense with non-horse people who don’t know what they’re looking at. Unless I’m blind, the OP is blatantly lying about the head hitting.
Nothing in that round seemed concerning to me other than the fact that I wouldn’t want to ride that sulky of a horse over fences that large. Then again, many people have their trainers do all the schooling on their horses so they never have to make corrections themselves. Maybe the OP is one of those riders.[/QUOTE]

I’m the one who thought some of the crop smacks were toward the head/neck. But I’m on a small screen on my phone and can’t enlarge it or pause to be sure.

That said it does seem like the OP is out for a witch hunt. If the rider was eliminated, and you know that, then why are you here asking about it?

[MtnDrmz]

Correction coming into the combination had to be made. You can’t go to a combination of that size with a shoulder blowing out that far and crocked. It’s a recipe for disater for both horse and rider. I thought she got on the horse and gave it a very firm ride after that, and if anything, I could have maybe done without the smacks after the last fence, but I don’t think this is a tar and feather situation.

When horses resist, they can make simple comands look like you are the most abusive person ever. Her bending was strong, but that’s actually not all that uncommon to do when a horse is locking up and trying to shut down. Also, when horses have become that resisant, you can litterally squeeze them with your calf, no spur or anything, and they will pitch a fit, making everything look much worse then it appears.

I will say I don’t think this horse loked like it wanted to play much at all, and I would not want to be the one schooling it around that course. Probably take it down a notch and see it it can get around a bit more willingly

[AmmyByNature]

On my full sized screen it seemed clear that the smacks were behind the saddle. I think the rider may have turned the stick around in her hand before the first one, and her hand did raise fairly high. This might have given the illusion that the horse was getting smacked in front of the saddle but it looked clear to me that it wasn’t.

[SlamDunk]

[QUOTE=amt813;8742636]
I think the rule states that “excessive” use of a whip is not permitted, but does not provide a specific number of times that you can hit the horse … could be wrong though, I am not an expert on the rules.[/QUOTE]

I think most of the stewards I know would consider that excessive use of crop, and would probably talk to the rider after the round and keep a close eye on them the rest of the week. And she was clearly angry after and excessive with her hand. I don’t think it warrants more then a stern talking to as the rules currently are though. And it sounds like she was eliminated so clearly the stewards did in fact take action against her.

[SnicklefritzG]

I didn’t think it was that bad, certainly not like what Reed Kessler did a while ago where she was clearly very angry and taking it out on her horse.

With Brianne, it looked like her horse didn’t want to play and was acting out in a manner that could spell big trouble.

[Pennywell_Bay]

The horse was definitely not cooperating coming away from the gate and she was never going to make it over. The horse deserved to be reprimanded as it was being gate sour. She was effective, well-timed and accurate.

Over the Ariat jump, she smacked him. Landed, his tail was wringing and he looked like he was going to let loose with a buck (again). So she whapped him on the rump (2ce?), tail wringing and he was certainly a SOB in the corner after the jump.

Look- he was not cooperating. She did not do anything excessive and honestly- she wasn’t flailing about whapping on him indiscriminately. She didn’t rip his teeth out, flail him with the crop. I don’t know if the landing whaps were needed, but he certainly looked to be in a foul mood prior to the “incidents”. Those are the only ones that I am not sure, but I have certainly ridden horses that you could FEEL needed that “GET THE HELL UP” or they would dump you on your head.

FWIW- since people are so worried about “what the public” would think- I showed a few members of my group. The general consensus was " Dang those are big jumps" and “Do your horses act like that. That’s scary”.

[midstride]

[QUOTE=AmmyByNature;8742678]
On my full sized screen it seemed clear that the smacks were behind the saddle. I think the rider may have turned the stick around in her hand before the first one, and her hand did raise fairly high. This might have given the illusion that the horse was getting smacked in front of the saddle but it looked clear to me that it wasn’t.[/QUOTE]

I respectfully disagree. On my full size screen, her hand is in front of her body and though blurry, there is a stick hitting the neck.

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=midstride;8742702]
I respectfully disagree. On my full size screen, her hand is in front of her body and though blurry, there is a stick hitting the neck.[/QUOTE]

It looked to me that on the first turn to the combination, when the horse went past it, she smacked the horse once, then went to smack again and whoops here comes the standard of the in to the combination…looks like she raised her right hand forward to steer, then went back for the second smack.

[AmmyByNature]

I went and watched again. (Not like I should be working or anything!) The first smacks are blurry and partially hidden behind the jump. I still think they’re behind the saddle and it’s just that she’s turning the stick around in her hand and raising her hand, but I’m willing to admit that I could be wrong. All the other smacks are clearly behind the saddle.

It may be that that is why she was disqualified - if the stewards or judge determined that they were in front of the saddle and discussed it after the fact then they could have eliminated her.

But - again - aren’t we establishing that the system worked? She was eliminated. I’m not sure what else the OP wanted to happen to her?

I still think the horse was being a pisser.

ETA

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8742717]
It looked to me that on the first turn to the combination, when the horse went past it, she smacked the horse once, then went to smack again and whoops here comes the standard of the in to the combination…looks like she raised her right hand forward to steer, then went back for the second smack.[/QUOTE]

I’m of this opinion, but it is blurry and hard to determine.

[Ridergirl99]

“There is a time and a place for appropriately…appropriately… disciplining a horse for poor and dangerous behavior. I do not believe this was in the best interest of the sport or the welfare of the animal being competed.”

I am all for positive reinforcement myself but it seems to me the stewards took action if the horse was in fact eliminated.

Seemed like a tough class to me and I think many of the horses were overfaced myself. It was more painful to watch some of the other horses struggle over the jumps IMHO.

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=midstride;8742702]
I respectfully disagree. On my full size screen, her hand is in front of her body and though blurry, there is a stick hitting the neck.[/QUOTE]

It was. Is there a rule it can’t be on the neck? Again, the whaps on the neck perhaps looked a tad overzealous, but the way he was acting I don’t know if she could have reached behind and nailed him without relinquishing some control of his head. He was being a butthead. Maybe she did loose her cool a little but that horse deserved to be reprimanded. She didn’t nail him in the head. He was twisting about he WANTED to unload her. Her final smack by the gate was when she had him under control and on the butt. If she had done it before he would have been totally out of control.

I don’t know what I would have advised, perhaps it is the way that her arm came up that people have an issue with, but I believe (having ridden a few SOBs) she was keeping both hands as close to the reins as possible to control him. JMO.

No-I’m not willing to crucify her for it. I’m fine if she was eliminated but she has to reprimand the horse. I’d be equally fine if she wasn’t eliminated. Perhaps she will develop some refinement in the future but it looked like a VERY.TOUGH.RIDE.

[Gumby80]

Pony looked kinda out of sync and grouchy the whole way round. The rider looked (in my very humble opinion) less polished and accurate than usual, maybe indicating that they could feel that pony wasn’t super happy throughout the round.

Run-out appeared to be a popped shoulder towards the gate. Hard to see on my computer, but a couple spanks for that (behind the saddle) would be ok with me. Where she lost me was the two whacks after landing from the last jump. Horse had just jumped it (like you asked), and you’re heading towards the gate, seemed more like retaliation and frustration than serving an actual purpose.

Again, hard to tell from my computer, but it didn’t look like she pulled up that hard at the end, more that pony got backwards and nappy as soon as she passed the gate.

Of course, this is all just internet/armchair commentating from me (and all of us). I certainly couldn’t ride through anything like that. But in terms of representing our sport … it makes me a bit uncomfortable. A whack or two right away after a disobedience is ok with me, but when it starts to look more like losing your temper… I dunno. I’d like to think that a steward might have at least had a quiet word, but I don’t make the rules.

[MtnDrmz]

[QUOTE=midstride;8742702]
I respectfully disagree. On my full size screen, her hand is in front of her body and though blurry, there is a stick hitting the neck.[/QUOTE]

I’m on a small screen so take it FWIW, but my first thought was it might have been the shoulder, not the neck. Watched it again, and it’s really hard to tell, but since the shoulder was the part blowing out, I think that was what she may have been trying to correct.

The horse didn’t want to turn left. She almost lost it to the red oxer early off the left turn, and used the rail and counter bend to muscle it around the left turn to the fence immediately before the left turn to the combo where the issue occured. The horse just looked sulky, wasn’t jumping through it’s body. Who knows what it was like in the warmup, but it really started to get dicey at the first triple combo where it was just popping up rather then using its body. That’s where I started to hold my breath a bit bc the horse wasn’t jumping well. I’m not familar with this horse, or what it usually goes like, but it seems like perhaps taking it down a notch to school could have been helpful. Just my armchair opinion :eek:

[DMK]

[QUOTE=AmmyByNature;8742720]
I went and watched again. (Not like I should be working or anything!) The first smacks are blurry and partially hidden behind the jump. I still think they’re behind the saddle and it’s just that she’s turning the stick around in her hand and raising her hand, but I’m willing to admit that I could be wrong. All the other smacks are clearly behind the saddle.[/QUOTE]

To me it did look like the first smacks were on the shoulder as the horse was still giving her a giant finger (hoof?) with the right shoulder bulge runout. That may have been the only option she had for immediacy and/or maybe BG thought she needed a good whack on the shoulder (she most certainly did) and since they were clearly out of the money it was worth the penalty/elimination.

But like you said, the system worked so it seems like a non-issue.

To the poster concerned about the public or PETA crowd goes, I don’t think there’s a lot of traction there. I’m pretty sure shoulder/haunches is semantics with that crowd. An uninformed bystander would probably see something more traumatic with being struck about the head (as would we all) but shoulder/haunches? That’s a distinction without a difference to the layperson. Meanwhile the PETA group sees an issue with all of it, but even then, their complaints wouldn’t hold water. There is a rule and it appears it has been enforced. End of story.

[JenEM]

Pretty sure the “three whacks” rule is in Eventing only. EV111.3.d. And it is three times per incident, not total.

[SpartanVirtue]

[QUOTE=snaffle635;8742640]
Please refer me to the ‘3 whack limit’ rule. I checked the USEF rulebook, but couldn’t find it.

Agree with other posters - from my viewing of the video (which wasn’t particularly clear on my computer), I wouldn’t consider this excessive use of the whip, nor did I see see-sawing of the mouth. I saw a strong bend left and right.[/QUOTE]

FEI Article 243:2.2 Excessive use of the whip
• The whip may not be used to vent an Athlete’s temper. Such use is always excessive;
• The whip is not to be used after Elimination;
• The whip is never to be used overhand, (for example a whip in the right hand being used on the left flank). The use
of a whip on a Horse’s head is always excessive use;
• A Horse should never be hit more than three times in a row. If a Horse’s skin is broken, it is always considered
excessive use of the whip;
An Athlete identified as misusing or excessively using the whip will be disqualified and may be fined at the discretion
of the Ground Jury.

[supershorty628]

I’m pretty sure the first smacks are on the horse’s neck, watching on my laptop. I have no interest in a witch hunt. The elimination could have been from 2 stops (the runout and when she heads back to it, the horse does stop before she gets it going) or from the whip use.

It’s not how I would ride it, but I’m not the one riding it. And she was eliminated, so I don’t foresee bigger consequences than that in this instance.