[QUOTE=snaffle635;8742640]
Please refer me to the ‘3 whack limit’ rule. I checked the USEF rulebook, but couldn’t find it.
Agree with other posters - from my viewing of the video (which wasn’t particularly clear on my computer), I wouldn’t consider this excessive use of the whip, nor did I see see-sawing of the mouth. I saw a strong bend left and right.[/QUOTE]
There’s an eventing rule for xc that is similar although it’s 3 whacks after a disobedience I think.
She absolutely hit the horse in front of the saddle a few times. If I could figure out how to post photos, I can show the screen shots of her winding up behind her shoulder with the crop in her right hand and following through over the horses neck. As the horse passes the airplane jump on the impromptu circle, she then uses it behind the leg.
Look carefully between 37:15 and 37:20. Specially in front of the impromptu circle before the Rolex jump and when she is behind it. There are two clear whacks.
[QUOTE=lindsay.anne;8742823]
She absolutely hit the horse in front of the saddle a few times. If I could figure out how to post photos, I can show the screen shots of her winding up behind her shoulder with the crop in her right hand and following through over the horses neck. As the horse passes the airplane jump on the impromptu circle, she then uses it behind the leg.
Look carefully between 37:15 and 37:18[/QUOTE]
She does. Is this not allowed ? I didn’t look up the rule.
[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;8742829]
She does. Is this not allowed ? I didn’t look up the rule.[/QUOTE]
USEF rule states no excessive use of whip, therefore it’s up the judge/manager/steward’s discression. Due to her being eliminated, and excessive use as grounds for elimination I would assume they took action as they deemed fit. I do this the yank left and right after completion of the course has something to do with it too, not just the refusal and punishment for the refusal. Likely the last 30 seconds in the ring may have been likely for the action.
Three times in one correction, not three times in a round.
You can’t hit the horse in the head, but other than that there is no fei rule about using the whip in front of the leg.
I think the first 1-2 were on the shoulder.
I think the elimination probably came from 2 refusals (the circle when he was bulging and then he obviously stopped forward momentum again near the ingate when she tried to represent).
IMO, the use of whip in front of the saddle was excessive. Although the horse badly bulged early in the course at another oxer, I would think a counter bend and some outside spur would suffice.
The use of whip behind the saddle on the way to the combination seemed warranted and she timed it well. He was super behind her leg and looked like him might have reared had she not reinforced forward. However, I usually only use the crop once (MAYBE twice). If the horse doesn’t move forward from one hit then it isn’t educated to what the crop means and it’s just confusing them.
I can’t tell if the whip behind the saddle in front of the last jump was necessary. The problem seemed to be the ingate and the problem seemed resolved on the approach to that oxer. But I wasn’t in the irons so it could have felt very differently.
After the oxer he might have been wanting to buck again, but I think she went to the crop too quickly. But she’s human and he was being a bully during the course so I won’t judge her for instinctively going to the crop in that situation. The bending afterwards was a bit much, but as soon as she realized she was putting too much backward pressure on him (he abruptly stopped and started really resisting) she eased off and focused on going forward again. She also didn’t go back to the crop after that instance. Which was the right call IMO since the horse was melting down a bit.
It was a rough ride no doubt (little too rough in my taste, but certainly not abusive), but I didn’t see a rider taking out frustrations on a horse by any means. I usually associate Brianne with very accurate and empathetic riding, so for her to be more defensive and aggressive on this horse might mean there is more of a back story the internet doesn’t know about.
That being said, can we just recognize how nice this horse is! Man that jump! He/she seems really cool and got out of some tricky spots for sure!
[QUOTE=supershorty628;8742813]
I’m pretty sure the first smacks are on the horse’s neck, watching on my laptop. I have no interest in a witch hunt. The elimination could have been from 2 stops (the runout and when she heads back to it, the horse does stop before she gets it going) or from the whip use.
It’s not how I would ride it, but I’m not the one riding it. And she was eliminated, so I don’t foresee bigger consequences than that in this instance.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much all of this. To me, on both my phone and laptop screens, there is very clearly forward arm motion as she whips it on the neck/shoulder. I believe there used to be a rule prohibiting the use of the whip in front of the saddle, but it has been modified to the statement that whipping the head is always considered excessive use.
I would guess that the whipping after the last jump would be to reinforce that leg means “go forward when I say so.”
To me, the use of the hand as she was pulling up wasn’t necessarily excessive - no, not necessarily just asking the horse to bend, but shaking it off the bridle after the horse was a bully much of the way around.
[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8742637]
So what are you doing besides complaining to us, an audience that can’t actually help you?
She was eliminated. is that enough or do you want this to escalate?
I’m all for supporting horse welfare, problem is- what qualifies as “too much” rough riding? good question.[/QUOTE]
The key word is “excessive” Rider has the right to school a horse in the ring. Now if she whacked him 50 times, that is excessive. 5 times on the shoulder or on the butt is not excessive. Maybe in defense of the horse, maybe her signals to the horse might have not been clear and the horse felt it was punished for no reason. Can’t say.
I thought I hear the announcer say 82 secs with time faults and rails. She didn’t refuse out. Her use of the crop is OK, the horse was ignoring her aids and stop listening. Sounds like the poster is a PETA fan
[QUOTE=Lace;8742578]
I trust Brianne knows her horses well enough to know how to correct them though.[/QUOTE]
And, how it did it work for her ? Mission accomplished ??
[QUOTE=FAW;8743028]
I thought I hear the announcer say 82 secs with time faults and rails. She didn’t refuse out. Her use of the crop is OK, the horse was ignoring her aids and stop listening. Sounds like the poster is a PETA fan[/QUOTE]
The score was apparently revised, so they either decided she stopped out or they eliminated her for a different reason.
Horse can really jump when it feels like it, though, dang.
May I add a 3rd concern ? How does this type of riding look to our junior riders, and less accomplished riders and trainers ?
At our barn the hunter kids, adult amateurs, and the beginners, are taught/allowed/encouraged to use their crop “whack, whack, whack!” rather than use legs and aids to get the job done. These aren’t corrections for “naughty” (aka evasive) behavior. This is to make the horse go faster. Is the horse standing still, but now the rider is ready to move forward ? Whack! Then perhaps a squeeze with the leg. This applies to lesson ponies, junior and adult amateur hunters. All three trainers subscribe to this method. Trust me, there is no education on when to use the crop and why. Unfortunately the loud sound of the whacking spooks horses in the next ring. But that’s another thread.
So I’m glad to see this discussion about a well known top rider, because it explains where the local circuit trainers get the idea that over use and reliance on the crop is ok for their riders. Mystery solved.
[QUOTE=Mardi;8743052]
May I add a 3rd concern ? How does this type of riding look to our junior riders, and less accomplished riders and trainers ?
At our barn the hunter kids, adult amateurs, and the beginners, are taught/allowed/encouraged to use their crop “whack, whack, whack!” rather than use legs and aids to get the job done. These aren’t corrections for “naughty” (aka evasive) behavior. This is to make the horse go faster. Is the horse standing still, but now the rider is ready to move forward ? Whack! Then perhaps a squeeze with the leg. This applies to lesson ponies, junior and adult amateur hunters. All three trainers subscribe to this method. Trust me, there is no education on when to use the crop and why. Unfortunately the loud sound of the whacking spooks horses in the next ring. But that’s another thread.
So I’m glad to see this discussion about a well known top rider, because it explains where the local circuit trainers get the idea that over use and reliance on the crop is ok for their riders. Mystery solved.[/QUOTE]
Except you can see that Brianne tried to use her leg first, and the horse didn’t respond, and that’s when she went to the crop.
Folks! We have the world’s greatest rider in our midst!
She knows what is enough on a horse she wasn’t even watching in person!
Everybody get in line for clinics, I’m sure there is a long waiting list!
in all seriousness, wtf? How do you know what “would suffice” or “should be enough” or what the horse is “educated to?” Horses can have bad days. So can riders. This horse is 10 and has just barely moved up to the grand prix level. The welcome is just that, an opening class to get in the ring and try it out and see what you’ve got.
We can quit armchair jockeying now. This is pretty extreme, even by COTH standards.
[QUOTE=IPEsq;8742580]
The crop was used only behind the saddle. A couple of smacks when the horse didn’t turn to the combination. A couple more when the horse tried to stop at the gate on her circle back to the combination. One off the ground over the last jump and 2 on landing.
I don’t know the horse to comment as to whether the smacks at the last jump were uncalled for. But the horse went to buck on landing after the first jump, and BG gave a good kick to send the horse forward who then focused on the job. So, the actions at the last jump could have been the right training move for this horse, which did start having a bit of a meltdown when trying to leave the ring. I didn’t see anything excessive about the correction into the combination, and the horse definitely did not get hit on the head.[/QUOTE]
Clearly you need to review the footage again in regards to the crop being used behind the saddle. Several smacks across the neck begin at 37:17.
[QUOTE=snaffle1987;8742600]
…Not trying to gossip…[/QUOTE]
Course not. Just making sure everybody in cyberspace sees the video and knows your interpretation of what happened and your editorial opinion/judgement/condemnation.
Shall we open the Blue Saddle and get the corn popping? I got wine…
[QUOTE=findeight;8743076]
Course not. Just making sure everybody in cyberspace sees the video and knows your interpretation of what happened and your editorial opinion/judgement/condemnation.
Shall we open the Blue Saddle and get the corn popping? I got wine…[/QUOTE]
I already started on the chips and guac, but I can make more.
She might want to go back and reflect on her answer in this interview because it surely isn’t seen in that ride.
If horses could talk, what would yours say about you?
If my horses could speak, I would hope they say that I treat them well and that they are happy! I try to take a gentle approach to training and riding. I very much dislike roughness and brutality and I think my horses appreciate my patience and softness. I assume you would find them very spoiled if they were able to tell you everything!
[QUOTE=Mardi;8743036]
And, how it did it work for her ? Mission accomplished ??[/QUOTE]
It’s hard to say without seeing the horse’s next round. How else is one supposed to test the effectiveness of the correction?
I think BG has a decent reputation and the fact she hit the horse close to the allowable number of times meant that she was feeling pretty desperate for a reaction.
Since I was not in fact sitting on the horse, I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.
[QUOTE=Mardi;8743052]
May I add a 3rd concern ? How does this type of riding look to our junior riders, and less accomplished riders and trainers ?
At our barn the hunter kids, adult amateurs, and the beginners, are taught/allowed/encouraged to use their crop “whack, whack, whack!” rather than use legs and aids to get the job done. These aren’t corrections for “naughty” (aka evasive) behavior. This is to make the horse go faster. Is the horse standing still, but now the rider is ready to move forward ? Whack! Then perhaps a squeeze with the leg. This applies to lesson ponies, junior and adult amateur hunters. All three trainers subscribe to this method. Trust me, there is no education on when to use the crop and why. Unfortunately the loud sound of the whacking spooks horses in the next ring. But that’s another thread.
So I’m glad to see this discussion about a well known top rider, because it explains where the local circuit trainers get the idea that over use and reliance on the crop is ok for their riders. Mystery solved.[/QUOTE]
So, it’s the upper level riders/trainers fault that the trainers are YOUR barn are subpar? Interesting blame shifting. If the trainers at your barn aren’t teaching appropriate use of the whip…and it is something important to you…why not ask them…or perhaps go find another barn.
[QUOTE=nccatnip;8743097]
If horses could talk, what would yours say about you?
If my horses could speak, I would hope they say that I treat them well and that they are happy! I try to take a gentle approach to training and riding. I very much dislike roughness and brutality and I think my horses appreciate my patience and softness. I assume you would find them very spoiled if they were able to tell you everything![/QUOTE]
I’m pretty sure my mare would tell you what a pushover I am and how she gets away with so much because I don’t want to make her mad. She would laugh at how a few naughty leaps in the air will get me to back right down. She would then tell you that she hates it when my trainer rides because she DOESN’t back down and mare has to do what she’s told.
Guess who has more successful rides?
[QUOTE=supershorty628;8743051]
Horse can really jump when it feels like it, though, dang.[/QUOTE]
Right?
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