[QUOTE=snaffle1987;8742626]
This is a large, publicly attended horse show. My first concern is the welfare of the horse. my 2nd concern is; how does this look in the eyes of the general public who might be watching this occur.[/QUOTE]
Given that the stands looked completely empty, I wouldn’t worry overmuch about that.
I would worry about what the stands being empty means for the future of the “sport”.
Indeed, if you are in a barn where you perceive excessive use of the whip is encouraged instead of solid basics? Why do you support that barn? Staying and continuing to pay them allows them to continue. Ironic.
[QUOTE=soloudinhere;8743064]
Folks! We have the world’s greatest rider in our midst!
She knows what is enough on a horse she wasn’t even watching in person!
Everybody get in line for clinics, I’m sure there is a long waiting list!
in all seriousness, wtf? How do you know what “would suffice” or “should be enough” or what the horse is “educated to?” Horses can have bad days. So can riders. This horse is 10 and has just barely moved up to the grand prix level. The welcome is just that, an opening class to get in the ring and try it out and see what you’ve got.
We can quit armchair jockeying now. This is pretty extreme, even by COTH standards.[/QUOTE]
Woah, easy now. That was really harsh. No where did I claim to be a great or even good rider. I was simply stating my OPINION on a thread that is meant to discuss our REACTIONS to a video. If anyone else learns by analyzing videos of successful riders I think they could appreciate my response as just that; attempting to put into words what I was witnessing, my thought on what were the reasons behind the different aids, and what I would do the same or different in the situation.
I clearly stated that I was not riding the horse and did not know what Brianne was feeling under the tack at the time. I also complimented Brianne and the horse multiple times. I think my response was actually pretty neutral.
Again, lovely horse and Brianne is typically an “accurate and empathetic” rider (my exact words. And she still displayed those attributes throughout this course despite the horse acting up (accurate timing of the crop the second time and knowing to back off her aids at the end are the two examples I used in my original post).
If you have personal ties to the horse and/or Brianne you are a lucky person and we are all envious I am sure!
That mare was sour from the second she walked into the ring. You can even see the whip down at the flank in case she needed it to get into the ring. There’s a difference between “relaxed” and “I’d rather be in my stall.” Slow walk, pinned ears, slow to pick up the canter (you can see brianne’s leg buried in her side) bucking after the first fence when leg was applied to move her up to the distance. The runout was the mare trying to go back to the ingate, and then again trying to go back when she was circled.
Then getting behind the leg in front of the last fence. She was then galloped forward, where she got upset and decided to run off, then spook when she was asked to bend, then try to take off toward the ingate and throw a bit of a hissy when she was turned away from it.
I say really great riding on a difficult horse with some ring sour issues.
I’d worry more about the future of our sport if riders weren’t taught how to ride both easy horses and problem horses, and how to tactfully get a horse that isn’t interested around a course and improve it for the next time. Heck, I created my own monster not being clear and consistent with my own mare.
[QUOTE=woodhillsmanhattan;8743135]
Woah, easy now. That was really harsh. No where did I claim to be a great or even good rider. I was simply stating my OPINION on a thread that is meant to discuss our REACTIONS to a video. If anyone else learns by analyzing videos of successful riders I think they could appreciate my response as just that; attempting to put into words what I was witnessing, my thought on what were the reasons behind the different aids, and what I would do the same or different in the situation.
I clearly stated that I was not riding the horse and did not know what Brianne was feeling under the tack at the time. I also complimented Brianne and the horse multiple times. I think my response was actually pretty neutral.
Again, lovely horse and Brianne is typically an “accurate and empathetic” rider (my exact words. And she still displayed those attributes throughout this course despite the horse acting up (accurate timing of the crop the second time and knowing to back off her aids at the end are the two examples I used in my original post).
If you have personal ties to the horse and/or Brianne you are a lucky person and we are all envious I am sure![/QUOTE]
No personal ties. Just thought the comments made were ridiculously presumptive.
[QUOTE=woodhillsmanhattan;8742857]
I think the first 1-2 were on the shoulder.
I think the elimination probably came from 2 refusals (the circle when he was bulging and then he obviously stopped forward momentum again near the ingate when she tried to represent).
IMO, the use of whip in front of the saddle was excessive. Although the horse badly bulged early in the course at another oxer, I would think a counter bend and some outside spur would suffice.
The use of whip behind the saddle on the way to the combination seemed warranted and she timed it well. He was super behind her leg and looked like him might have reared had she not reinforced forward. However, I usually only use the crop once (MAYBE twice). If the horse doesn’t move forward from one hit then it isn’t educated to what the crop means and it’s just confusing them. Note: I am speaking about my own personal experience/education. I guess I could have clarified that I am not inferring the horse is uneducated but I didn’t realize that’s how people would read it so that’s my fault.
I can’t tell if the whip behind the saddle in front of the last jump was necessary. The problem seemed to be the ingate and the problem seemed resolved on the approach to that oxer. But I wasn’t in the irons so it could have felt very differently.
After the oxer he might have been wanting to buck again, but I think she went to the crop too quickly. But she’s human and he was being a bully during the course so I won’t judge her for instinctively going to the crop in that situation. The bending afterwards was a bit much, but as soon as she realized she was putting too much backward pressure on him (he abruptly stopped and started really resisting) she eased off and focused on going forward again. She also didn’t go back to the crop after that instance. Which was the right call IMO since the horse was melting down a bit.
It was a rough ride no doubt (little too rough in my taste, but certainly not abusive), but I didn’t see a rider taking out frustrations on a horse by any means. I usually associate Brianne with very accurate and empathetic riding, so for her to be more defensive and aggressive on this horse might mean there is more of a back story the internet doesn’t know about.
That being said, can we just recognize how nice this horse is! Man that jump! He/she seems really cool and got out of some tricky spots for sure![/QUOTE]
Left my original post in tact but figured quoting, bolding, and adding a note will emphasize that this was my opinion and honest initial reaction to a video. If there were parts of my post that had a different tone it wasn’t my intention. I stand by the opinions I stated but still have a lot of respect for Brianne and have followed her career since Horse Power (Season 2 please! :lol:). I don’t want anyone thinking I don’t respect her or am inferring I am a better rider than her (I wish I was 1/32 as good of a rider as her!)
[QUOTE=woodhillsmanhattan;8743144]
Left my original post in tact but figured quoting, bolding, and adding a note will emphasize that this was my opinion and honest initial reaction to a video. If there were parts of my post that had a different tone it wasn’t my intention. I stand by the opinions I stated but still have a lot of respect for Brianne and have followed her career since Horse Power (Season 2 please! :lol:). I don’t want anyone thinking I don’t respect her or am inferring I am a better rider than her (I wish I was 1/32 as good of a rider as her!)[/QUOTE]
Well of course. Because YOU only use the crop once, that is obviously the correct answer. And because YOU would think to just give a little touch with the outside spur, that would totally put that horse on the straight and narrow!
I mean, I can read all your words like “think” and “opinion” but the thing is, bolding them doesn’t really change the tone.
It comes across as very self assured that had you been the one riding, you would have put in a Beezie Madden round and the horse just needs more training. I suppose it never occurred to anyone that some of that training has to take place in the ring. Horses don’t come out of the womb knowing how to jump around a 1.50 course, much as breeders would like to tell us otherwise.
I once had someone tell me that this type of thing was a “jellyfish statement”; on the outside it’s a compliment but on the inside it kind of stings. “Of course, it could have felt differently” well obviously, because this rider had a very different reaction to it than you did. Rarely does riding FEEL like what it LOOKS like.
[QUOTE=soloudinhere;8743142]
No personal ties. Just thought the comments made were ridiculously presumptive.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. You’re allowed to think that! It’s helpful to know how written posts are interpreted by others. I thought I was being more neutral (being equally complimentary and negative in my interpretation of the video) than other posters but I guess that did not come across.
[QUOTE=FAW;8743014]
The key word is “excessive” Rider has the right to school a horse in the ring. Now if she whacked him 50 times, that is excessive. 5 times on the shoulder or on the butt is not excessive. Maybe in defense of the horse, maybe her signals to the horse might have not been clear and the horse felt it was punished for no reason. Can’t say.[/QUOTE]
Bolding mine.
Going by FEI rules, 5 times is excessive.
Article 243.2.2 Excessive use of the whip
• The whip may not be used to vent an Athlete’s temper. Such use is always excessive;
• The whip is not to be used after Elimination;
• The whip is never to be used overhand, (for example a whip in the right hand being used on the left flank). The use
of a whip on a Horse’s head is always excessive use;
• A Horse should never be hit more than three times in a row. If a Horse’s skin is broken, it is always considered
excessive use of the whip;
An Athlete identified as misusing or excessively using the whip will be disqualified and may be fined at the discretion
of the Ground Jury.
[QUOTE=soloudinhere;8743157]
Well of course. Because YOU only use the crop once, that is obviously the correct answer. And because YOU would think to just give a little touch with the outside spur, that would totally put that horse on the straight and narrow!
I mean, I can read all your words like “think” and “opinion” but the thing is, bolding them doesn’t really change the tone.
It comes across as very self assured that had you been the one riding, you would have put in a Beezie Madden round and the horse just needs more training. I suppose it never occurred to anyone that some of that training has to take place in the ring. Horses don’t come out of the womb knowing how to jump around a 1.50 course, much as breeders would like to tell us otherwise.
I once had someone tell me that this type of thing was a “jellyfish statement”; on the outside it’s a compliment but on the inside it kind of stings. “Of course, it could have felt differently” well obviously, because this rider had a very different reaction to it than you did. Rarely does riding FEEL like what it LOOKS like.[/QUOTE]
Didn’t say it was the correct answer. Simply stating my personal experience. I am not inferring anything about my own personal abilities by analyzing a famous riders video on a discussion forum. My compliments to Brianne and the horse were genuine.
I am not sure why you had such an issue with my particular post but I am going to leave it as you can’t please everyone. Good luck with all your riding endeavors!
[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8743139]
That mare was sour from the second she walked into the ring. You can even see the whip down at the flank in case she needed it to get into the ring. There’s a difference between “relaxed” and “I’d rather be in my stall.” Slow walk, pinned ears, slow to pick up the canter (you can see brianne’s leg buried in her side) bucking after the first fence when leg was applied to move her up to the distance. The runout was the mare trying to go back to the ingate, and then again trying to go back when she was circled.
Then getting behind the leg in front of the last fence. She was then galloped forward, where she got upset and decided to run off, then spook when she was asked to bend, then try to take off toward the ingate and throw a bit of a hissy when she was turned away from it.
I say really great riding on a difficult horse with some ring sour issues.
I’d worry more about the future of our sport if riders weren’t taught how to ride both easy horses and problem horses, and how to tactfully get a horse that isn’t interested around a course and improve it for the next time. Heck, I created my own monster not being clear and consistent with my own mare.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Looked like a tough horse and needed that school.
[QUOTE=longtimelurker;8743061]
Except you can see that Brianne tried to use her leg first, and the horse didn’t respond, and that’s when she went to the crop.[/QUOTE]
IMHO this is a talented mare who was going good enough on course until the landing and subsequent poor attempt to turn left for the next fence (the bulging shoulder). That was pilot error; the horse wasn’t in any way balanced ahead of time and available to make that next fence. It wasn’t an easy turn, but the horse is clearly athletic enough that she would have made it had she been set up better.
It was downhill after that. The horse was losing confidence in the rider along the way with each unexplained whack. The proof is after the final fence (more whacks) and the frustration shown by both horse and rider. The horse, understandably, had had enough. As one of our past Olympians would say, “It was ugly riding.”
This horse entered the ring quiet and agreeable. It did not leave that way.
If someone can show me how the horse regained confidence and improved after the first missed left turn via more hits (“corrections”) with the crop, I would be willing to listen.
Why do I need to find another barn ? I don’t train with those folks.
[QUOTE=snaffle1987;8742626]
There is a time and a place for appropriately…appropriately… disciplining a horse for poor and dangerous behavior. [/QUOTE]
Yeah…normally when the “poor and dangerous behavior” happens…like on the spot.
When would have been an “appropriate” time to discipline this horse for its surliness in the ring? When she got out of the arena and the horse had no idea what it was being disciplined for?
Horses are not bright creatures. You have to be quick with the discipline or it has no effect. Everyone knows that…
This is a non-event to me. I did watch the video…
Ms. Goutal needed to school the horse during this round.
Everyone who has taken a horse around knows that things can go sideways. Hopefully you know your horse and I think that this rider knows her horse.
I am surprised at the “oh you are beating you horse!” reaction here.
I think that some people, who do not train their own horses, are unaware of the importance of the response is required from the horse when jumping at that level. The horse must be forward. It is dangerous for horse and rider if the horse is not on the aids.
If you are not present when your trainer corrects a horse, you should find the time to be there, whether it is your horse or someone else’s.
Otherwise, get a grip and realize that undisciplined Gran Prix horses are a disaster waiting to happen.
It seems to me that Ms.Goutal’s round became a training round, at THAT time with THAT horse.
I certainly would not, after watching that round, second guess her.
As for what PETA would think about it ? I would expect hysteria. Who cares? I suppose that Peta would rather see a rider or horse die than to see a horse smacked with a crop. What PETA thinks is irrelevant.
I am quite confident that if this horse continues to have behaviour issues , it will be given another job. Though perhaps, if Ms. Goutal feels that this horse is worth training, and will end up enjoying the job after all, it will be a successful endeavour.
Perhaps not, but I think she is is good enough to make that call.
[QUOTE=Go Fish;8743326]
When would have been an “appropriate” time to discipline this horse for its surliness in the ring? [/QUOTE]
When was it surly ? Seriously…tell me when on the video and I’ll take a look again.
[QUOTE=Mardi;8743382]
When was it surly ? Seriously…tell me when on the video and I’ll take a look again.[/QUOTE]
She’s balky the second she enters the ring. Ears pinned, slow pokey walk, whip down at the flank in case she balks at the ingate. Then she kicks out at the use of the leg in the first line. The runout is a result of gate sourness. She was trying to leave the ring and was ignoring the aids to do otherwise.
Each whack was a well timed “go forward when I say so”
The end hissy fit with the rearing was when she was turned away from the ingate, she obviously planned on barreling right out of it as soon as she was done and instead was turned away from it.
[QUOTE=snaffle1987;8742532]
Has anyone seen this video footage and if so, has anyone at USEF been alerted of the following and if so, what are they doing about it?
scroll to about 35 min and watch
http://tryon.coth.com/article/live-stream-35000-suncast-1-50m-welcome-thursday-830am-2[/QUOTE]
So I read through all the comments and then went back and watched the round.
I saw nothing that screamed abusive or inappropriate in the ride. Lovely horse that seems to be bratty at which point rider (tactfully, IMHO) corrected. I saw no yanking or snatching - rider (probably appropriately) did some bending back and forth to get a better control over the shoulders, horse certainly tried to shut down and she brought it back, and any hitting in front of the saddle was appropriate and needed IMHO. If a horse starts bulging the shoulder, you correct the shoulder, and tapping/hitting with the crop on the shoulder or lower neck is indicated.
At least that is my take on training. I think too often we try to straighten by moving the rear end when what we need to do is move/control the shoulders.
Nice horse and lots of potential. I would bet that we will see the brattiness corrected and this horse will go on to do some winning at that level in the future. Rider was riding “tough” but if that were my horse, I would approve of how she rode.
But I am just an eventer, so what do I know? :o
I think the OP has an ax to grind. One could find many worse examples out there of “over-correction” but OP chose this rider for some motive or another.
I have no problem with schooling in any ring at any time. But there is a difference in schooling and being a bully. Just what are you teaching a horse by striking it over and on the neck?
It was excessive.
It was inappropriate.
It was ineffective.
It was poor horsemanship.
[QUOTE=nccatnip;8743422]
I have no problem with schooling in any ring at any time. But there is a difference in schooling and being a bully. Just what are you teaching a horse by striking it over and on the neck?
It was excessive.
It was inappropriate.
It was ineffective.
It was poor horsemanship.[/QUOTE]
This is where we will have to agree to disagree. She did NOT strike it over and on the neck. She hit the horse on or just in front of the shoulder. This is not illegal, and she could not strike the horse hard in that area unless she held the whip upright and struck on the opposite shoulder (which is illegal for good reason).
I watched the round on a biggish screen so as to see more detail than available on a laptop.
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