[QUOTE=monstrpony;2029435]
Eggie, that would be Heza Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback Chip Olena, if you please.[/QUOTE]
Love it!
Almost: Heza Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback SMART Chip Olena…
Actually it would be “Ima” and not “Heza.”
Another good post. I’m so glad somebody else has the gutts to say it.
I would strongly suggest you pursue the PM path if you would like to discuss any of the above material further. Thank you!
TS- why are you so angry with everyone on the dressage forum? You aren’t having a constructive volley, so what do you get out of it? It just seems like, time and time again, all of your posts about dressage are negative and one-sided. Not one person on the dressage forum can sway your opinion in any way, and when they disagree with you, things get ugly. Are you looking for the negative reasponse you recieve? Sometimes it ruins a perfectly good thread that’s supposed to be about dressage, not you. 
Kathy Johnson wonderful posts. Thank you!
Someone who loves and understands dressage and still agrees with me. Someone who has also worked with many young horses and understands the danger of pushing them. The trot in places is very passagey. The horse is being ridden in a 4th level or better frame and this is not good for him. It is stressful on his poor joints. His stifles and back can not be ready for this. He is very talented yes but he doesn’t have the muscle development or strength yet. He is tired in that frame and needs to stretch down. He could end up like Poetin or all the other horses that we have already forgotten about because they fizzled away at 5 or 6. I hope he doesn’t. I hope he goes on to be a Grand Prix sensation. I just love him.
I’m not the type of person to push a horse early on. I’m from Europe and As someone said, in Europe, we don’t touch them (I really mean it) till they are 3 … No round pen, no nothing. They are just horses and that’s it.
When they are 3, we start them, W/T/C. I worked for some big breeders and after a month under saddle all the horses were ready to do a training level test.
After that, some started some work over fences and after a few weeks they were shown. After one or two shows, they were turned-out again for a couple of months.
It has been done for decades and most of these horses went on to have wonderful careers (Grand Prix Jumpers, PSJ, Advance level in eventing).
In my opinion, Quaterback is not being pushed beyond what he can do as a 3 YO. He is a phenomenal horse and he can do naturally what it would take hours/years of training to get with a ‘very’ talented horse.
I can bet you that they don’t work him everyday in this kind of frame, but he is at a ‘show’ and therefore they need to try to show off as much as possible. My guess is that he has a natural uphil frame and that it doesn’t take much from the rider to get him ‘up there’.
I trust German people to give strong basic to their horses.
Overfeeding youngsters, a lot of round pen work in deep footing, bad footing in arenas, over-longeing, lack of fitness, … All these things are way worse for the long time health of your horse than working undersaddle with an experienced trainer, in a nice environment.
As it was stated before, a study showed that working horses early on, helps to get stronger bones and therefore sounder horses. Like everything else it’s all about being sensible.
Last thing, about his frame. When you go in the show ring do you ride your horse the same way you ride him at home ? I don’t. I always start long and low at hom, I always finish long and low. I usually don’t ride everyday down centerline, bla, bla, bla. This video clip is not a training session for 3 YO, it’s a stallion approval were the goal is to impress the judges and the crowd. That’s all it is. It doesn’t mean that everyday at his farm, Quaterback trot around this arena with a rider at a sitting trot and in upper level type of frame.
Everybody doesn’t need the same amount of training. It’s true for people and it’s true for horses.
Just as a comparison. I have two students that are 13 YO. One is very gifted, she can ride any type of horse (hot, bucking, lazy), her balance is incredible and she just gets it right away.
Her girlfriend on the other end, just doesn’t get it no matter what. She is working very hard and trying, but she has no feel.
Does it mean that both girls should do the same thing, because they are 13 YO ? Does it mean that I’m a bad trainer to put the gifted one a barely broke horses or TB just coming off the track ?
As far as horses, I broke 8 of them this year. With one of them, I’m still not cantering and she has been under saddle since september. And with an other one, I could go and win at training level tomorrow. I currently have a 3 YO in training that is not as nice as Quaterback (I wish he would), but he has the same kind of balance ans carries himself in a natural upper frame (and yes he still uses his back), does it mean that for the next year I should force him to be like a QH with a long frame because he is 3, or should I just let him use him self the way he is built for and just teach him to really push straight ?
the thing people seem to miss is there is no such thing as a ‘grand prix frame’ or a ‘4th level frame’, and there is no such thing as a ‘training level frame’, in fact, there is no such thing as a ‘frame’ at all in dressage. to talk about ‘frames’ is totally wrong. there is no one appropriate ‘frame’ for a horse of ANY level to be ridden in.
the horse is ridden in a position that is natural and comfortable for it. it is stretched from that posture as an exercise, not as a permanent posture, to make a horse like this travel in an artificially low frame all the time would destroy his balance.
this horse is naturally upheaded and uphill. if i was riding him, i would not try to spend 6 months trying to make him go around all the time with his head like the average amateur training level horse with his head hung down and his neck horizontal.
this whole thing is part of the ‘down and down and down and always down’ school of training dressage, which is no ‘school’ at all, but some sort of wrong headed religious practice that developed in america. if all one does is swim around in one’s own little pond, other ways of swimming may seem wrong.
for a more useful comparison, look at how the young stallions at the spanish riding school are ridden, or what sort of posture ahlerich was in as a 4 year old with reiner klimke, or aktion, with his rider/trainer, or invasor, or any other horse you admire.
you’re in for a shock. they aren’t ridden around with their head on the ground either. that whole thing is something uniquely Adult -Amateur American.
My perspective
Quaterback is a naturally talented horse.
Yes a certain amount of what we are seeing is manufactured but believe me a large percentage is not.
If you look at his sire you will see that the apple really hasn’t fallen too far from the tree. He has inherited his sire’s exceptional gaits and character.
Also the damline is responsible for some of the biggest names around.
Do I think that this was good fortune on the breeders part, well sure it was, just the same as it was in Florencio’s case.
As far as I am concerned this is a once in a lifetime horse and we should consider ourselves lucky to have witnessed the eras of both Quaterback and Florencio.
To see these boys in the flesh is a very special experience and I for one can’t wait to breed to Quaterback.
Danni
Mademoiselle is correct. I worked for a year in Germany on a farm that foaled out mares and prepared young stallions for the 100 day tests. The stallions live out(and I mean 24/7) in a group together with geldings and were only halter broken. Most were Feb - May foals. Stallion tests are in the fall, so in late July/early August the now 3.5 year old stallions are backed. They are only “lightly” trained (walk, trot, canter, halt, turn right & left, please don’t buck too much!) because a substantial part of their test score is their trainability, which is assessed during the 100 days of the test by the bereiters and trainers at the testing site. Once the test is over, approved stallions may be used for breeding, but all were turned out and not ridden again at all until summer of their 4 year old year. Even then they were started all over again as is appropriate for they youngsters that they still are.
nice neddy – ts horse start at 3.5 years and at 3 racing starts as yearlings and raced at 2
to break a horse in a takes minutues- if they have been brought up well accpet a rider with ease if not normally a couple of days its not the breaking its the schooling once broke then school it
you say not at 3 for 20 mins each side wont hurt and a rider that does it well will have a nice repsonsive light horse balanced both in leg and mouth
and altho you dont do dressage dressage is the basis of all good schooling
as dressage is to school a horse–
as to the breeding if he has good parentage then he doesnt nessecarily have to be a proven stallion
and while iam here think this as you being abit off regards to the being and doing things with
he has grub her has a stable he has execellent care and attention and no doubt becuase of his breeding has top notch people doing things for him so hiswelfare department is well taken care off — regardless of whos on his back doing whatknots
hes got a jolly good home
ok look dazed, your obviously into that sorta thing. I used to be. I sounded just like you when I was into arabs. My mom was good friends with mike whelihan. Even he said…they dont come out like that. He has ridden and trained MANY a park and EP national champion. My last arab I got from him, she had won some EP regional championship when she was younger. I dont know which and I didn’t breed her. I just know when I got her and tried to do dressage with her…it took YEARS to get her to actually use her back in a very minor way. My cousin also showed in this catagory and decided to switch to dressage. Same thing. You clearly do not understand what it means for a horse to be in self carriage, or to use his back properly, because you compared the warmblood here with arabian park horses. They are not similiar. I have watched many many top arabian park horses over the years. Ray bradburn lived down the road from us. In case you dont know who he is, he used to own zodiak matador, perhaps one of the best park horses ever to live. And he used to produce babies en mass, so many that it flooded the market here and probably elsewhere. We used to go and look at them …hed have 100 yearlins, weanling, two year olds ect and NONE exibited anything even remotely similiar to the finished product and well they certainly didnt even move nicer than the average warmblood. You may be offended but I can identify the difference between an artifical gait and a natural one. I know what it is for a horse to use it’s back, and I know what a hollow horse looks like. I have never, in all my years of showing nationals ect and watching them, seen an arabian park horse that is either natural in his way of going, or one that is correctly working over his back or is in a state of true selfcarriage where things look effortless for him. That is my opinion, and quite frankly I really dont care wether you think it is ignorant or not. And while I did not breed arabians for ep or park, for obvious reasons, I have seen enough at various stages to have an informed opinion. You can go on thinking that arabians that run around like TWH or saddlebreds is natural, but you are truly only fooling yourself. Lets look at it this way. You send us a link to a three year old arabian park horse with no pads or weighted shoes, just basically started that exhibits even half of the self carriage, impulsion and elasticity of this horse, since you beleive they are comparable.
Thanks Kuegel for that insight. I do not have first hand experience of preparing stallions for approval but I think I am safe in saying that doing what Kuegel describes is not going to cause a horse to flame out early or set them up for a lifetime of chronic lameness.
If the horse was ridden like that every day for 45 -60 minutes, well yah, that would be an issue. According to those who know, that does not happen.
They have one shot at approvals. A score that will, I believe, follow them around for the rest of their breeding career. Get him going, let him show off his amazing wonderfulness, and get some videos out there…so the deep pocketed dressage aficionados can start hunting under the sofa for their loose change, and we mare-owners can start having Quaterman fantasies.
What happens next it going to be very important. Then he needs a chance to finish growing up.
As for not breeding to a young, unproven stallion…if we only bred to proven stallions, the gene pool would get shallower and shallower. If the young fella has the conformation, the gaits, the bloodlines, the temperament (and the fact that he was this well behaved, in this venue…speaks volumes…tactful and talented rider notwithstanding) and he is a good match for one’s particular mare, both by type and by bloodlines…well why not??? If no one bred to young unproven stallions…what would happen to the bloodlines. Just my zwei pfennig.
I think you’re right chicki. I’ve loved Arabs for 100 years now, and it does seem to me that the natural abilities as a baby have to be cultivated and trained to get that end product. I had the opportunity to work with an Arabian who seemed to have a lot of naturally high knee action. Some horses you can just tell what their goal is in life. I put a surcingle and sidereins on her - up high so the reins were hooked by her withers (not the long and low like you would for dressage.) She was wearing a set of SMBs and bell boots on the front - just for protection. Well my god, we couldn’t believe how that mare trotted out. Her knees were coming up twice as high and the hocks were extremely engaged and active. Just for giggles we took off the surcingle, reins, and all the boots. Just sent her out on the line. Head was down and loose, and gaits very flat. So to me, I think what the horse does when just free - no gear or gadgets - that’s what’s natural. And truthfully, I don’t think there’s any kind of riding in the world that is truly “natural.” The horse is always going to affected by a bit, a saddle, by shoes, by something. I’m not saying that’s bad, because I don’t think it is. But I do think to access natural ability, the horse should be free.
Question - why are the approvals not done when the horse is 4? Why do you have to do it at 3? Especially considering the horses being approved are big, gangly slow growing warmbloods?
[QUOTE=Emryss;2029804]
Almost: Heza Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback SMART Chip Olena…;)[/QUOTE]
You Forgot: Heza Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback ZIPPIN Smart Chip Olena
Heza Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback Zippin Smart Two Eyed Chip Olena
[QUOTE=Two Simple;2030385]
Heza Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback Zippin Smart Two Eyed Chip Olena[/QUOTE]
And for the Appy lovers among us:
Heza HIGH Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback Zipping Smart Two Eyed Chip Olena
