Insulating a barn

[Simkie]

We were planning on having someone do this for us, but getting people to even return calls is nearly impossible and I think putting up insulation is idiot proof enough that we can handle it ourselves.

The roof is already done, so it’s just the walls. The barn is your typical pole shed building with the metal siding screwed to the wood skeleton.

From my wanderings through Menards, it seems there are two types of product that would work:

The foam board stuff

or

The shiny bubble wrap stuff

What do we want to use? And what sort of r value are we looking for? What’s pressing right now is getting the insulation up behind the new stall walls…the rest of the barn can wait a bit, but we want to get the new stalls in ASAP.

[Angelico]

I LOVE the spray foam personally, it is ugly, but it is the best insulation and it lasts forever.

[Simkie]

[QUOTE=Angelico;7771584]
I LOVE the spray foam personally, it is ugly, but it is the best insulation and it lasts forever.[/QUOTE]

Would love to, but WOW is it costly, and we have that issue of people not calling us back. They’re just too busy for such a small job right now.

[CHT]

There was a scary documentary on Spray foam recently. If it is not done completely right (and something as simple as the weather can mess that up) then the chemical may not mix correctly and can cause a smelly product and possibly even health issues.

We used the foam board for much of our barn wall insulation and we have not regretted it. It has lasted well and our barn is VERY well insulated both from the heat and the cold. Very easy to put in as well.

[Simkie]

Awesome, CHT, thanks for the info. What thickness did you use?

[Frog_Pond]

[QUOTE=Simkie;7771570]
We were planning on having someone do this for us, but getting people to even return calls is nearly impossible and I think putting up insulation is idiot proof enough that we can handle it ourselves.[/QUOTE]
I haven’t actually wanted a telephone to ring in 20 years, until buying a farm that needed many smallish jobs done! But, ahem, on the idiot-proofness of insulation, I’ll just say this: make sure you are clear on which side faces out, no matter which product you choose. They sneak all sorts of membranes into things today, and I slapped up a bubble-wrap style the wrong way last year :no: My brother just bought a house that had the pink stuff installed the wrong way in both attic and basement :eek::lol:

[Simkie]

What’s the skinny on this stuff?

http://www.insulation4less.com/Insulation4lessProduct-2-Prodex-Total-Fast-Action-48-Inch.aspx

They claim a huge R rating for the width and cost! Sounds too good to be true?

[rhymeswithfizz]

[QUOTE=Simkie;7772782]
What’s the skinny on this stuff?

http://www.insulation4less.com/Insulation4lessProduct-2-Prodex-Total-Fast-Action-48-Inch.aspx

They claim a huge R rating for the width and cost! Sounds too good to be true?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it is.

This company does not follow standard protocol and testing for calculating r values. It’s a bunch of crap, basically. Avoid them.
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/stay-away-foil-faced-bubble-wrap

I’d stick with rigid foam board.

[CHT]

[QUOTE=Simkie;7771670]
Awesome, CHT, thanks for the info. What thickness did you use?[/QUOTE]

Gosh, it seems so long ago! I think we just went with the thickest we could budget and that would fit in the area to be insulated. The doors have thicker insulation than the outside of the cement pony wall for example.

[rhymeswithfizz]

A 2" rigid would be ideal, but 1-1.5" would also suffice!

[Tiffani_B]

FYI the spray foam insulation is VERY flammable and is only supposed to be used when it’s sealed up behind drywall. I would never use it in a barn.

[Anjou]

You might want to consider a few things before you decide to insulate.

(1) Why are you insulating? The horses don’t need to be warm and in my observations prefer it on the cold side. So are you insulating to make the barn warm for you? Are you doing it to save on feed costs (a cold animal burns more calories)?

(2) What happens if, God forbid, the insulation catches on fire. Will it generate toxic smoke that will kill you or your horses when they breathe it in? That rigid insulation is generally polyisocyanurate and I’m thinking is makes cyanide gas when it burns, but I am speculating.

(3) What happens if the horses gain acess to the insulation and start eating it? I would think it wouldn’t be good for them.

Here’s the best solution to insulate the walls of your pole barn. Nail wooden planks on the inside of the 4"x6" vertical poles. You’ll need to do that anyway to prevent the horses from kicking a hole in the metal siding. This will create a pocket that is 5.5" thick. Fill that pocket from the top as you go with loose straw, which is an excellent insulator and, unlike manmade insulation, is not hazardous. Make sure you seal the pocket at top and bottom so you don’t end up with a massive colony of mice in the wall cavity.

[Angelico]

@Anjou;7773121

You might want to consider a few things before you decide to insulate.

(1) Why are you insulating? The horses don’t need to be warm and in my observations prefer it on the cold side. So are you insulating to make the barn warm for you? Are you doing it to save on feed costs (a cold animal burns more calories)?

Insulation keeps the barn cool in the summertime as well as warm in the winter.

[IPEsq]

Spray foam when not covered up is also a place where birds love to dig and make nests…leaving a sprinkling of spray foam everywhere and ultimately ruining your insulation.

[Anjou]

[QUOTE=Angelico;7773129]
Insulation keeps the barn cool in the summertime as well as warm in the winter.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I understand the potential benefits of insulation. I was inquring why Simkie felt the need to insulate their pole barn. Now, let’s discuss your points – warm in Winter; cool in Summer. Really?

(1) Winter. It’s cold outside and you want it to be warm inside the barn. Horses generate heat, which is radiated to the air in the barn. If the barn (or the stall) is fully encapsulated in insulation, the barn will stay warmer than the outside air; maybe a 20°F temperature difference. And because it’s cold outside, you have all the doors and windows shut tight, right? Let’s hope not because that means you do not have proper ventilation and stale air will build up in the stalls and make the horses more susceptible to illness. If you do have proper ventilation, heat will flow to the colder location (outside) via the path of least resistance and that circumvents your insulation. Will your barn be warmer than if you had no insulation? Absolutely, but the benefits of insulating a barn are far different than for a house.

Summer. It’s hot outside and you don’t want it to be too hot inside the barn so you insulate the walls and the ceiling and you keep all the doors and windows to the barn closed tight so as not to let in the heat, right? Prolly not. You’ve likely got the big aisle doors and the stall windows open to let in any breeze that might arise. Ooops, you’re letting the heat in. Quick, close up the barn. Keep in mind that your horses are generating heat and insulation retards to flow of heat, so they are warming the barn even in the Summer and the insulation “traps” their heat inside, along with the stale, possibly damp air. Cough, cough. Personally, I would hope that the horses would be outside under a big ole shade tree enjoying their pasture.

I hope I have not upset you, that was certainly not my intent. I merely wanted to point out that things are not always as they seem.

If you want to get a feel for what it would be like, try this experiment. In the dead of Winter, turn off the heat for 24-72 hours and measure the temperature inside versus outside. Hopefully, it will stay above freezing because of the insulation in the house. Now, open enough doors and windows so you get the kind of ventilation a few 1000-pound horses need and note how much warmer it is inside, if there is any difference. Repeat during the Dog Days of Summer without any A/C.

[Simkie]

I’m insulating the barn because I hear it routinely gets to well below zero for long stretches and this is considered SOP to keep waterlines from freezing. Minnesota is different than Pennsylvania, Anjou. People who live HERE have advised insulating the barn.

And your idea of stuffing the walls with straw won’t fly. There’s no way to make that enclosed space with no egress for bugs and rodents and water without lining the steel siding with wood, then stuffing, then lining the barn with wood and then sealing up the top. And I bet even then bugs and rodents can get in. Stuffing the walls with something so perfect for vermin sounds like a terrible idea.

Thanks for the feedback on the foamboard, Fizz

[kdow]

Even with the windows and doors open, insulation in the walls and roof would help protect against heat build up from the sun beating down on those surfaces. Plus, if you have insulation summer or winter, you can choose to increase ventilation even if it changes the inside temp. If you have no insulation and barn is too cold in the winter, there isn’t a lot you can do safely. Possibility of excess trapped heat seems better than excess cold.

[King_s_Ransom]

The insulation discussion are always a hoot around here, since few know anything but everyone claims to be an expert!

If you travel to Europe, or even to areas in the U.S. where barns were made with extremely thick walls, you will notice that the barns stay cooler in summer and warmer in winter. That’s all. You don’t really need to be a physicist to figure it out.

Ventilation is a good thing. The sun beating down on a thin metal roof or west-face wall in summer — not so much. The wind blowing THROUGH the thin metal wall in winter, with ice forming on the inside … again, not too comfy for anyone.

Insulation is a good idea. Air-tight is not a good idea.

If you fill the voids between your metal walls and your kick boards inside the barn with straw you are creating an incredible, unbelievable fire hazard. And there is no way on earth you will seal that tight enough to keep insects and rodents out of it – and even if you did, they would eat right through your wood kick boards to get into it.

However, I am sure the OP is not going to do such a foolish thing!

[Simkie]

[QUOTE=King’s Ransom;7773562]
However, I am sure the OP is not going to do such a foolish thing![/QUOTE]

Nope, the OP is definitely NOT going to do such a foolish thing! :lol:

Sounds like the foam board is definitely the way to go. Does it all have to be covered/protected from birds? We’d not planned on paneling all the way up to the eves this year.

[Anjou]

Forgive me if I have offended anyone, I was under the presumption that the purpose of a forum is to openly discuss ideas and provide suggestions so the OP can make an informed decision. You are more than welcome to disagree with me, rebut my suggestions, or provide alternatives. That’s how we as a society learn and grow.

While I am certainly no expert, I can tell you that without a heat source, insulation will not make a barn warm. Insulation will retain heat from the horses, but two horses in a 48’x36’ barn is not much of a heat source. The large, thick-walled (stone) barns in Europe that you referenced were far more densely stocked because animals were typically kept in narrow stanchions, not roomy 12’x12’ stalls. BTW, the insulative value of 12 inches of stone is about the same as 1 inch of wood, R-1. I cannot see any way to insulate those 12x12 sliding doors on each end of the barn; thus they will always allow the cold Minnesota temperature to pass through freely and are not much better than an open door, except that they do block the wind, which is a huge boon. Do you disagree that a properly-ventilated barn will allow the heat to dissipate through the roof cupolas during the winter?

You mention that filling a wall cavity with loose straw is “an unbelievable fire hazard”. The autoignition temperature of straw is 170°F. Are you suggesting that the metal walls get that hot in the Minnesota Sun? Maybe they do, in which case, you would be correct. If not, what’s the ignition source? Keep in mind that the OP will be storing baled hay in her barn, which if it is not properly cured is probably the #1 cause of barn fires; another major cause being electrical problems (overloaded circuits, chewed wires, etc.). Just things to keep in mind since we are discussing hazards.

Moving on, Simkie has decided on the Foamboard. The other choice, Reflectix, is worthless as insulation – it’s value relies upon reflecting radiant heat and you need at least 1.5 inches of space on either side for that to work. I have it installed under the purlins of the metal roof of my home, which I personally built, and let me tell you that it reflects some intense heat back into the sky. Ouch that’s HOT! Bad choice on my part. It does keep out the heat, but the intense heat is causing my paint to prematurely fade. Live and learn. The Foamboard should be clad in wood to keep the horses from eating it, I would imagine. The autoignition temperature is fairly high, around 700°F. That’s good because I was concerned about the hot metal siding causing it to burn. The Foamboard is R-5 per inch, which s decent. Not sure how thick you were planning on using, but I would fill the entire wall cavity for two reasons: (1) more insulation is always better, imo and (2) ease of installation. Incidentally, rigid insulation can be cut very nicely on a table saw, as I can attest from experience, although you can also use a circular saw. No matter how much insulation you install, I’m not sure you can keep the air temperature inside the barn more than 20°F above the outside temperature without supplemental heat. We use an oil filled space heater in our cathouse and sometimes the cats actually sleep on top of it at night.

You’ve got a real nice place there, Simkie. Best of luck.