Insulating and Heating a Pole Barn

[Tiffani_B]

What is the best way to add insulation and heat to an existing pole barn? The barn has wood supports and trusses, metal roof, wood siding (although we will be replacing it with metal in the next year or two). The barn has 8 stalls and an indoor arena. The arena has the semi transparent 4’ section along the eaves and a section along the centerline at the top of the roof, and the stalls all have windows.

The home on the property is heated with propane, and there is electric to the barn. I don’t think there is a propane line to the barn, and it’s about 1/8 mile from the house so I’m not sure I’d want to run one due to expense.

I’ve looked at the styrofoam panels, but I’ve seen those in other barns and they are bird havens. I’m also looking at the reflective bubble. The horses won’t be able to reach it, since the ceiling is too high and the stall walls go all the way to the eaves.

My concerns are proper ventilation/mold prevention, fire safety (so no spray foam) and no animal attractants. And of course, good R value, reasonable cost, and easy to install.

[js]

I’ve only known one person that heated a barn, that was when we lived in Anchorage AK, even there most of the barns were not heated. The one that was had radiant heat in the flooring of the aisle but not the stalls. It kept the barn at or just above freezing. The indoor had very large overhead heaters, all the indoor arenas I rode at had some kind of overhead heaters, they worked great, except in one barn, my upper body would be hot and my feet frozen. I don’t know what they ran on but guessing electric. I would be concerned with fire hazards when heating a barn. I think if you insulated the ceiling and walls that would be sufficient to keep horses warm. I would consider heat for the indoor though, something you can turn on and off as needed. Otherwise, the radiant heat in the aisle was really nice kept it just warm enough.

[Robin]

I have seen barns with styrafoam insulation in a “sandwich” of outside steel siding, insulation board and then lighter inside steel siding. Birds can’t get at that. Easy enough to install but I don’t think it is exactly cheap.

For propane heat, no reason you could not get a separate tank located convenient to the barn and run a short pipe from that tank to the barn. Just locate so far enough away for fire safety and easy access for the delivery truck. Tanks seem to be priced about a dollar a gallon to buy (for big tanks) so probably cheaper than trying to run supply from the house.

[mattv]

My shop/barn is 40x30. No animals – wrenching/mechanic work and equipment storage only. I spray-foam insulated the whole thing and use a small wall-mount propane heater and a double-sized grill bottle. It stays above 40 with no heat.

Wife’s stables are probably 60x30, also spray-foam insulated. Overhead radiant propane heat in there. There is a 500-gallon tank by the stables for the heater. Indoor arena 60x140 attached to stables, no heat. Roof is spray-foam insulated to prevent condensation though.

[Tiffani_B]

I’ve read that spray foam insulation is very flammable, so I’m hesitant to use it. Plus it’s expensive.

Js, many barns up here in the Wi/Il area are heated. Winters can be brutal. Weeks at a time well below zero. I need to be able to keep horses working and when it’s under 10 or so, it’s too cold.

[demidq]

The only reason to heat the barn is to prevent the water from freezing. Horses don’t need it toasty warm tho their riders like it! Insulate the barn,blanket appropriately and save the heat for the arena so you can work.

[Tiffani_B]

[QUOTE=demidq;7278322]
The only reason to heat the barn is to prevent the water from freezing. Horses don’t need it toasty warm tho their riders like it! Insulate the barn,blanket appropriately and save the heat for the arena so you can work.[/QUOTE]

It’s all under one roof. And whether horses “need” it or not is irrelevant. I’m asking for advice on HOW, not IF I should.

[CrowneDragon]

What I have learned over the last few years is that setting a barn up for heat “after the fact” is difficult. Radiant heat (usually under the aisle) does a good job of heating surfaces and not just air. Forced air (or whatever you call it!) heats the air better, and every time you have to open the doors, you lose a lot of heat. The barns here with that type of heat tend to keep things shut extremely tight and you have condensation everywhere, which is a bad sign for air quality (of course that can be an issue with radiant heat, too, I just haven’t seen as much of it). That is aside from the fact that having anything with an open flame in a horse barn is dicey, with dust and bits of hay and bedding flying around. There is a large barn here (about 30 stalls with an attached indoor) that thought that one centralized furnace/blower would be sufficient to heat the place above freezing. They lost all of their pipes that first winter!
I have no idea how big of a deal it would be to rip out your aisle and start there with radiant heat. It would be very expensive. I have seen overhead radiant heat in arenas, but never in a barn. No idea of the safety of that set-up, or if it would be practical for a barn.
Anything you can do to keep things even slightly above freezing is a big help. With good insulation it is amazing how well just the horses’ body heat helps keep things more tolerable.
I hate winter with a fiery passion, and it’s already bad here.

[betsyk]

I’ve been in a couple of heated barn/arenas that worked, and several that didn’t. The one, notably, that didn’t attempted to drop the ceiling, insulate above it, and add blowers. The door would open and horses would come in, letting g any eat out. Then the blowers wold kick on - whoosh - making the horses edgy just as you we’re mounting (poorly located over the mounting block). They were noisy enough that you really couldn’t teach over them, so you’d wait to start your lesson until they shut off, then just as you were getting going they’d whoosh on again, startling everyone again. Bad system. They were propane, from a tank just outside the arena.

The others I’ve known are in barns that are either incredibly stuffy and stinky, or very drafty. If I had your setup, I’d still be looking for a way to build some separation between barn and arena. You only need to heat the arena when someone is riding, so create a system for that, rather than a system that would need to be on all the time and cost exponentially more.

[Tiffani_B]

I’ve been in a barn that had the heaters that only heated “things” and not the air. I don’t know what they’re called - they hung from the ceiling. But if you stood under it, you’d get warm, but the actual air never warmed up. Any idea what those are? I’d prefer to avoid anything with flame if possible. The big heaters with blowers are at the bottom of my list because of noise, expense, and potential fire hazard.

What about heat lamps?

I’m mainly interested in keeping the arena comfortable, probably low 40s or high 30s, just enough to take the edge off. I’m assuming there will be residual heat flow into the stall area, but if the entire building is insulated, that part should be warm enough for the horses, as well as me when cleaning stalls/working. I can always turn on a torpedo heater for a few minutes to take the chill out of the air if it’s absolutely miserable.

[AKB]

My daughter boarded at Playland Farm in Maryland one cold winter. Their barn and indoor are heated, and are very comfortable. You might email Glenda to see how she heats the barn. For some reason, I think she has a rather unique system.

[Jim_in_PA]

[QUOTE=Tiffani B;7277785]
I’ve read that spray foam insulation is very flammable, so I’m hesitant to use it. Plus it’s expensive.[/QUOTE]

There are multiple types of spray-foam insulation available. The closed-cell spray foam our home is insulated with does not require covering, for example, to meet fire code. And most forms of insulation will burn if the structure has a fire. Styrofoam is no different…very flammable if you put a flame to it. Even fiberglas will burn once the temps get high enough. One of the advantages of spray foam is that it can be applied directly to the underside of roof structures, both in new construction and in retrofit situations. So for a barn structure, it may be a good choice for “up top” for that reason, despite the higher cost, as it will assist both in colder and warmer months with comfort in the space. The other advantage of spray foam (closed cell) is it also serves as it’s own vapor and wind barrier…seals up tight…and also adds rigidity to the structure.

For the walls, things are a bit more complicated, especially since you are planning on changing the outside wall material. Pole barns also don’t always have the wall “structure” that many insulation materials in normal sizes are expecting to attach to. Spray foam has an advantage here, too, but unless you’re leaving the existing wall material up when you re-sheath the structure, that wouldn’t be a good idea…it sticks to what you spray it on. You may need to use the wide, poly covered insulation material made for warehouse type structures, but even that may need some strapping to stay in place.

[WildBlue]

[QUOTE=Tiffani B;7278561]
I’ve been in a barn that had the heaters that only heated “things” and not the air. I don’t know what they’re called - they hung from the ceiling. But if you stood under it, you’d get warm, but the actual air never warmed up. Any idea what those are? [/QUOTE]

Infrared?

[Jim_in_PA]

[QUOTE=WildBlue;7280125]
Infrared?[/QUOTE]

Correct. Infrared heating solutions heat people, animals and “things”. They do not heat the air directly, although heated objects will then radiate some warmth into the air. I heat my woodworking shop with several infrared heaters…they bring quick comfort to “me” and at some point the air temperature also rises because of the equipment getting warmer and then radiating that heat to warm the air.

For large buildings with reasonably high ceilings, there are excellent gas fired “long tube” radiant heating units available. You’ll see them actually in use in some of the “big box” home centers to heat “people” their stores, especially near entrances. They are specialty items, however, so you’re not going to find these larger units on the shelf somewhere…

[mattv]

[QUOTE=Tiffani B;7277785]
I’ve read that spray foam insulation is very flammable, so I’m hesitant to use it. Plus it’s expensive. [/QUOTE]

As referenced in the thread already, closed cell foam is no more flammable than any other insulation material. This will be the 3rd winter in my shop building with closed cell/propane wall-mount heat. No issues at all, but of course I’m careful to avoid any dangerous situations.

As for the cost – our indoor arena and stable roof was severely damaged by hail and replaced. The bid for regular batted fiberglass insulation was about 14% lower than the cost of the spray foam. I had access to my own lift that I let the spray foam crew use, so that did save me a few dollars in passed-down expenses.

We’ll never have any chunks of fiberglass hanging from the roof or falling.

Even if the roof is considerably damaged by hail, we shouldn’t have any leaks due to the sealing properties of the spray foam.

I can take a power washer and knock down any bird nests in the rafters from the ground and not worry about damaging the batted insulation.

When I was putting the sprayfoam in my shop building, I realized I wouldn’t have to plywood all the way up the sides and I wouldn’t have to be on a ladder attaching batted insulation to the roof or plywooding the inside/roof to retain the insulation. I was particularly not wanting to deal with the eaves of the building. Spray-foaming got the job done very quickly and saved me a ton of time/money by not having to use a retainer to hold the insulation in place.

For me, it’s been great and I’d do it all again for sure. Everyone has their own success criteria though - maybe another solution will work perfectly for you. Best of luck on your project!

[Jealoushe]

One option is an outdoor woodstove - with the heat running underground into the barn. You would need a furnace of sort to dispense the heat. You can use the outdoor woodstove to heat with hot water.

[Tiffani_B]

Would air circulation/mold be a problem with spray foam? Could it seal “too well?”

It definitely would be easier to use on the ceiling. The walls already have girts between the 4x4s and the siding, so there is something to attach to and the required air space between the siding and insulation is already there.

There are a few different properties we’re considering purchasing. I’m hoping to get one that doesn’t need new siding!

Thanks so much for all of your input - much appreciated!

[Jim_in_PA]

Mold/moisture is not an issue with spray foam as it is in direct, intimate contact to what you spray it on. There is no space for mold to grow or moisture to accumulate That’s one reason you can spray it directly onto a roof structure without baffles for air flow. It’s also why it adds rigidity to the structure.

[Anjou]

[QUOTE=Tiffani B;7283794]
Would air circulation/mold be a problem with spray foam? Could it seal “too well?”[/QUOTE]

When horses (or any other animals) consume feed, they convert it into carbon dioxide and moisture. That moisture must be allowed to leave the barn or you will have poor indoor air quality and mold issues. It is my understanding that you optimally want to exhaust all of the air from the barn every 10 minutes. Let’s say you have a barn that is 24’ wide x 36’ long x 11.5’ high. That’s 60,000 cubic feet per hour! What you need to ask yourself is how is YOUR barn ventilated? Are you relying solely on the ribbed channels on the underside of the metal roofing? If so, spray foaming or otherwise closing off those channels is going to contribute to moisture buildup in your barn… worse air quality… more respiratory stress on your horses. If you are thinking that the mositure exists via the open doors/windows, what happens when you close those in the Winter? Yep, you trap the moisture. inside and mold loves moisture. We’d love to help you resolve your question, but you need to explain the ventilation system in your barn.

[Anjou]

[QUOTE=Tiffani B;7278387]
whether horses “need” it or not is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]

I think you are being unfair to demidq. There are millions of people who mistakenly believe that horses require a warm barn and therefore it needs to be insulated. I would presume that the intent of demidq’s comment was to ensure that you were aware of this.