Interesting article on doing less (trainers)

It depends on the finances. Are they making more money with fewer clients which was Matt Brown’s point? Unless you can see their books, you can’t claim they are making more or less. Also, you need to look at the long run to see if they back fill with new clients. I’m not surprised they would lose some clients intially but may gain more.

I ran a software company. When I was hired the company was barely breaking even. We had a lot of customers who were paying very low prices. I raised the rates by 25% and we lost a lot of those clients but we ended up making more money because we weren’t losing money on the low value client. In the longer run we gained more clients at the higher rates.

The barn in question only time will tell.

We are a private barn on our farm. We’ve had people ask if we would board them and the answer is always no. There is not enough money in the world to have to deal with clients in a low margin business.

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Unfortunately, fewer barns and fewer horse owners hurts everyone, from top to bottom. You (g) may not be affected directly by the closing of the average middle of the road boarding barn, but on a large scale it means fewer tack shops, fewer hay growers, fewer feed stores, fewer companies focused on product development, fewer lobbyists helping support your state’s horse industry, fewer horse show sponsors, fewer vet clinics…
We are fortunate that the race horse industry in this country subsidizes a lot of equine medical and product research, but on a local level your surrounding population has a big effect on what kind of services you can expect to receive.

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I assume most top earning riders and trainers make most of their profits from sales commissions and the boarding and such is more or less at cost. Because it seems like the boarding and training costs vary some but tend to go along with staffing levels and location, whereas the cost of the horses and thus the commissions are hugely variable?

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My vet said the same not too long ago. She gave it 10 or so years.

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I hope not. I love my little farm and I’m on the lower end compared to many horse owners.

I’d have a boarder or two, but insurance costs is prohibitive and my place is far from fancy. Its very barebones even though I do have a working bathroom in the barn and hot water.

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Insurance is alot, for certain.

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I do think the very top dollar programs make plenty on board - Heritage, North Run, Beacon Hill, that kind of place.

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I mean I hope they make a reasonable/good profit but it can’t compare to commissions right? Even if someone charged $2,000 more per month than their costs for board, that’s only $24,000/year. That’s the commission on one $160,000 horse. I think the horse at those top places often cost a lot more. Even if you make it $5k/month/horse profit on board, that’s one $400,000 sale at 15%.

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I suspect not as they have one groom for every 4 horses. Those barns carry a lot of overhead.

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I tend to lean towards one of the reasons for burn out with trainers is a lack of willingness to set boundaries.

I see it in other small businesses as well, like, “we have to do this or our clients will leave!”

An example from the small insurance broker I work with, the boss kept saying he couldn’t ask the business owner for the Birthdays of all his employees so that we could quote with different carriers because it’s “to much” for the owner. So, the VP spent 30 minutes combing through old records to find it. Turns out we needed the Birthdays for 2 people…Pretty sure the owner knew his own Birthday and it would have taken him far less than 30 minutes to confirm his business partner’s, if he needed to confirm.

Constantly that business owner is saying “we have to get this done in this timeframe” and it’s a way to short timeframe to do without error or to deal with the carrier, etc. I’m pretty sure he gets annoyed with me because I will say something like, “you need these applications in by this date for your desired start date” and when they don’t do it, I have no problem saying, “OK, we have to push the start date back because you did not get the tasks accomplished in the timeframe I told you we need them.”

He also makes comments to the effect of, “we made a deal with this carrier so we HAVE to use this carrier/vendor.” No, dear, that’s not how business today works. If the carrier/vendor is not holding up their end of the bargain, we can and SHOULD look elsewhere.

Similarly, I see it in the horse world - places starting to get overcrowded because the owner is fearful of turning down a client or turning down one of 5 horses from a client means they will lose all the business. That can be overbooking lessons, taking in to many horses, doing to much.

Sometimes it is the start of the business, sometimes it is gradual. I remember one person stating that of a 15 stall facility, only 5 were needed to “make the minimum” and this was a good business strategy during some economic down turns when only 8 were occupied - so the business stayed afloat relatively easily and survived. But then they wanted more and not just “a new trailer because this one is old” but “new fancy, all the bells and whistles trailer”. New vehicles, new other things - then it back more and more horses were needed in training/boarding in order to cover those expenses. More work, more was expected of the employees because they didn’t want to hire to many, etc.

It’s a snowball effect and rather than saying “I’m full”, the fear became so much that if one horse is turned away, 10 more were going to go instead of trusting that the service and care was so good that the one horse will jump on the first opening. So fields that used to have grass didn’t, which meant more hay was needed and more injuries due to overcrowding, etc.

The places that have lasted in the long term - some do have an element of land in the family long enough to not have mortgages, but the most common denominator was that they set boundaries - such as you will use my farrier because it is easier for me, or my vet, or I absolutely will not blanket your horse, I don’t do blanketing for any horses.

A sense of worth is needed as well - like if the price is 3D, it’s 3D - I had someone 3D print something for me and asked how much. He said $50. This was a new hobby for him and he was excited about using his new printer but then we had a discussion and I told him he needs to understand his worth. So how much did the materials cost? Minimal (not including printer cost as it was not bought to make money off of), ok, how much time was spent…well, it was a new printer, he didn’t know a lot of stuff so he spent probably 10 hours total trying to figure out how to get what I wanted. So I paid him $100 and told him - that’s only paying yourself $10/hr. That’s very close to minimum wage. Pay yourself $20/hr for the work, minimum. We discussed that the project he did for me had a lot of extra issues due to lack of knowledge so moving forward the hours needed will shrink so what took him 10 hrs for me will likely only take 2 for someone else, now that he knows what he’s doing, so if that price drops to $40, he’s still making more money. It also helps offset the time spent away from his wife and infant child creating this masterpiece for me.

I think he is considering turning it into a business but he’s not quitting his day job just yet. He is still making things for people and charging them for it.

Anyway, that’s my opinion and something to consider regarding burnout.

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I’ve boarded at a place where I felt this became a problem, although I could never decide if it was because they were interested in one more boarder to pay monthly or they couldn’t stand to disappoint people. Maybe it was a mix of both. I know the owner was concerned about pricing out clients and wanted them to have affordable access to horses.

The place was definitely under market rate and I would’ve been more than happy to pay more, but they and their facilities became spread thin. I don’t think they were interested in fewer horses with better maintenance. So, I left in search of a place that had a different business model and it was a bit of a rude awakening for me.

My options seem to fall into two camps: backyard operations that aren’t any more maintained than where I came from or places that work for what I’d like amenities wise, but require a program. My discipline is niche and those don’t make sense for us. My horse is now pretty far away with a trainer of my discipline and I’m paying a lot more, but I’m not spending as much on lessons or fuel to haul in.

All in, I’d love to buy my own place ASAP because I’ve gotten picky and I’m concerned about the future of boarding. The dynamics of the boarder/BO relationship I could go on about, but I never know exactly how to word it.

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I agree, depending on location it can be difficult and horse owners are so individual with what their needs and wants are.

Upthread, someone mentioned having to choose between riding a dirty horse (caked in mud) or spending their entire time there cleaning and my first thought was - well yeah, just clean off where the saddle and bridle go and off you go! Other people just cannot fathom that.

One place I left was sure that place was the best, in large part because of the nice indoor but where my horse is now she’s gets good grass (was belly high in one field this spring), organic feed, outside 24/7 with access to a barn with fans, but her own stall to eat in so no one is bothering her, etc. No indoor but ticks all my big boxes and I still ride almost every day. Keep in mind, I actually like riding in the snow and don’t mind riding in a drizzle (usually bareback or in the bareback pad), very hot or very cold, so usually just a strong rain storm is what puts me inside (that and laziness).

I know someone else who insists her horse cannot live in a herd and cannot be outside to long, etc. I’m not saying this person is incorrect in their assessment, just that they would never agree to the situation I am in.

That being said, I can and have made compromises in order to keep my horse in an adequate facility that fits my budget. The problem is when a barn starts doing to much to keep horses and someone like you maybe comes and is like “yes, this is adequate and in my budget” not knowing that they already started burning themselves out doing to much for to little - meaning the place sells or goes under or you are then asked to do more and more or guilted like the poster upthread who showed up to a lesson and was told they almost couldn’t pay for hay.

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Oh, I can’t find who was postulating what “middle class” means but I looked it up and found this interesting calculator:

For reference, it says in my corner of the world $75K single person household is middle class but in the Boston area it is lower class.

That’s why it is hard to determine exactly what “middle class” means or “affordable boarding” is.

There’s a ton of extra factors as well - I am not sure if my brother and his family (5 total) make enough to be middle class as I don’t know how much they make and it’s at arond $200K (we live in the same town), which they may bring home as they both have good jobs. BUT - they don’t owe a mortgage on their house and that income level assumes certain things like paying average mortgage/rent in the area. Someone else making the same money but maybe had bad credit and hence a high interest rate mortgage may make “middle income” money but really be closer to lower class than my brother.

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I spoke to the middle class a few times. My point on the topic is that it used to be something people aspired towards and was a measure of success. Today the middle class, which is approx half the country, is essentially being priced out of a lot of things that used to be a given, especially if they have a child/children.

DH and I are upper middle per income and location. If we had a kid, I wouldn’t be able to afford my horse and still be able to retire comfortably.

When only the top 20% can afford luxuries like horses, the industry is going to feel it.

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I can’t remember who it was, middle class was mentioned a few times but someone specifically opined on not knowing exactly what middle class is - like what income level is that in what area?

So, I thought the calculator interesting and germaine to the discussion - especially since a number of $1K for full care board being opined by one person as the “floor” as far as a boarding facility breaking even. A lot of places around me don’t have board cost on their website but one does and it is $680 for full care at a facility with a nice indoor.

I think it is important as it works both way - someone making $200K and claiming they are “lower class” or someone making $200K and claiming they are upper class - both could be right, depends on where you live.

I have trouble understanding how you think you couldn’t afford a horse with your income if you had a child BUT that is so location and individual preference dependent - what are the options in your area? What are your must haves?

The person I listed above finds a MUST HAVE as being able to put her horse in a stall for 12-18 hrs (depending on weather and stay in in really bad weather). She would not find a place that is $400 for field board acceptable.

Speaking to availability, maybe that is acceptable to you but not available.

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Let me rephrase that; I couldn’t afford the lifestyle my horse has today. In this past year alone, I have spent multiple thousands of dollars on diagnostics, rehab, therapies, medications, supplements, shoes/boots, for a horse that we finally now know has chronic Lyme.

Could I have kept riding him and just shrugged the NQR stuff off? Sure, many people do but that’s not my style. Could I chuck an easy keeper in pasture board for less than the $900/month I pay for board now? Sure, but that wouldn’t be without consequences and isn’t in his best interest. I also wouldn’t have a kid that I couldn’t set up for success which unfortunately has a pretty high cost these days. I have chronic health issues which is the reason why I chose early in life to not have kids, and I am beyond thankful I don’t with the state of things today.

For me personally, I’m not going to half-ss horse ownership just to have a horse if I couldn’t truly afford it without racking up oodles of credit card debt, sacrificing my ability to be able to retire. Same if I chose to have a kid, I wouldn’t half-ss that either.

This also depends on spending habits. There are a lot of house poor people out there in some big fancy houses, but they can’t afford anything else. That doesn’t mean they are lower class, they are living above their means. I remember seeing an article about a couple in a HCOL city that was griping they had no money. Generous salaries. Huge mortgage. Huge, multiple car payments on pricier vehicles. If they actually attempted to live within their means, they would still have been better off than most people, but they didn’t look at it that way.

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I constantly tell my horse I need to work to keep her in the lifestyle to which she has become accostumed but I think your first part is an example of how we can talk past each other - that your horse needs extra care doesn’t really factor into the overall “is ownership to expensive/do trainers do to much” discussion for me.

My horse, after a bit of going round and round with her being NQR, we finally figured out it is chirpractic issues, which is about an extra $200/month in care for her but when I discuss care/boarding options/what trainers do - I don’t factor that in. I also try to look up board in my area because it also isn’t fair to say “well, I’m squarely in the low income bracket and I don’t I understand how people cannot keep horses!” without factoring that I keep my horse at a friend’s place about 5 miles from my house and don’t pay board. Without the chiropractic work, my costs for horse ownership are $50/farrier visit and roughly $200 yearly for vaccines/coggins.

If you are factoring that in, as well as a certain lifestyle expectation for a theoretical child, then that’s a different conversation, in my opinion. It is still a valid one, just not one I’m having.

It reminds me of something my sis-in-law mentions - she doesn’t understand how anyone raises a child o n an annual income of $60K (not sure where she got that number). I kind of roll my eyes - well, you see, they don’t have a house with a pool, they don’t go on away every weekend and several vacations per year, they aren’t looking for a beach house or rent a beach house for a week with the extended family, etc.

I do agree with you that spending habits/expectations make a difference as well. For example, someone maybe grows up well off and has certain expectations of horse care in regards to that - nice facility, bathroom facilities in the barn, indoor, groom, etc. When they grow up, they find that they are priced out of that but they have been taught by this experience that horses NEED to be in a stall for half the day, or MUST be hosed off in the heat of the summer, or something else that generally speaking horses do not need.

But, this individual, now on their own dime, is having trouble fitting that level of care into their budget.

On your topic of HCOL article you read - I see that all the time, people griping about not being able to afford a house and I point out that my house is worth about $100K right now but they don’t want to live in my low income neighborhood and even though they are single, they insist on a 2000 sf house (mine is about 700sf) and a half acre yard (mine is .09acres). And again, that’s anothe way sometimes we talk past each other - like what do you mean houses/living expenses are unafforable right now? It’s the whole keeping up with the Jones’ scenario.

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I don’t work with a trainer anymore, but the cost of care should absolutely factor in to a discussion about expenses (not so much about whether trainers are doing too much). If a client’s horse has health issues come up, they very well may have to choose to spend their money on whatever diagnostics/care the horse needs vs keeping their horse in training which then hits the trainers pocket. Or they can toss it on a CC and add to their own personal debt.

To me, this goes back to parenting and setting your kids up for the real world (which seems to be happening less and less from what I read).

This isn’t directly related to horses, but the themes carry through. My dad was a career dentist. My mom was an RN who eventually took over the office manager role for both his practices. We lived in a very LCOL area. In regards to finances, they were very practical. They gave me ALL the tools they could early on to succeed; bought me a new car going to college (cheap - Toyota Echo which I drove for over 10 years into the ground before getting a new car), they paid for my college in full so I never had to worry about loans. Those two were the big ones.

They also taught me early about money/budgets and when I got into Jr high, I got a monthly “allowance” that seemed big (I think it was $125), but I was expected to use that to buy all of my personal care items and any “extras”. And account for gas when I started driving with no “raise”. My mom would take me school shopping, but if I wanted random clothes, I had to buy them with my budget. They didn’t push me working during the school year, but were clear that if I wanted fun money, summer jobs were the best option for that. They of course also paid for all my horse stuff from the horse itself to showing etc. Although I spent like $50 of my own money (which seemed like a TON at the time) for professional photos at Youth Show when I went.

They made it clear that if I wanted to live a lifestyle similar to theirs, it wasn’t just going to be handed to me. What they did give me, were the tools and a huge leg up from a lot of my peers, which I used, to set my life up pretty darn well and gave me the option to buy my own horse as an adult in her late 30’s with this horses welfare front of mind.

Yes and no on keeping up with the Jones’. In my area, sure you can buy some houses that aren’t super huge and expensive, but the trade off is they tend to be in higher crime areas which I can understand not being a selling point for a lot of people, particularly those just starting families. There seems to be a lot less options these days which doesn’t help and doesn’t look like its going to change for the better anytime soon.

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Don’t forget that access to quality education as a child has a huge, undeniable impact on a person’s ultimate earning potential and financial literacy. In the US, public education is location based (yes, even charter schools), so living in the “good” area can directly impact the quality of your child’s education. School districts can add tens of thousands of dollars to a house price, and demand is high. Yes there are more options these days for accredited private and online schools, but those do come with financial barriers.

So a single person or childless couple can make a lot of choices that save them money that seem obvious to them. People really don’t account for how expensive and limiting it is to have a child - the concept is chronically undersold to the general public.

Unfortunately, the places where a “middle class” family can raise kids in a good school district with access to good jobs are increasingly separated from where one can properly keep a horse for a percentage of income that bracket can afford to spend on a hobby. Especially a hobby that can’t be abandoned in the garage on a hard year and stops eating money.

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100%!

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