Interesting article on doing less (trainers)

[Ajierene]

@FjordBCRF

I don’t work with a trainer anymore, but the cost of care should absolutely factor in to a discussion about expenses (not so much about whether trainers are doing too much).

I agree but I think that’s where we talk past each other sometimes. When I think of trainers doing to much in horse care, I think of the basics - stall cleaning, feeding, turn out/bring in, blanketing, holding for farrier, annual vet check up - things that are known. I don’t factor in extras for “special needs” horses. Not because I don’t think it is important, just that it adds so many variables that it makes a cohesive discussion much more difficult. Like I cannot compare my horse expenses to yours well becaue my horse just needs a chiropractor as “extra expense” but yours seems to need a lot more.

I also think vet care is more commonly accepted as “extra” and generally speaking (though certainly not all the time) boarders are more understanding of paying extra when a health issue occurs. Maybe that is my experience also, as I never boarded at a place that held the horse for the vet or did extra health related treatment without an extra charge.

The one gelding at the place where I board now was purchased for $600 and needs nothing other than farrier care. The other one was about $10K to purchase but also doesn’t need anything. The mare and foal need more work and the foal ended up at the NICU. That’s a whole other discussion. It’s just so many extra details/cost of vet work/access to vet work (I live within 40 min of a horse hospital attached to a university but someone 40 minutes south of me lives an hour and 20 min from the closest facility like that so that’s a WHOLE other variable).

That’s why I try to keep - to “average horse” and “averae horse care” as much as possible - even that has it’s own variables (none of the horses where I am now wear blankets in the winter).

[Ajierene]

@fivestrideline

Don’t forget that access to quality education as a child has a huge, undeniable impact on a person’s ultimate earning potential and financial literacy.

While I agree with this, I also see programs where an individuals is complaining about lack of housing and this single, child free individuals is worried about the school district. Like everything from the conversations says they do not have a plan to have a child in the next 5 years but I guess just in case? and just in case they do not decide to move?

That’s where, as FjordBCRF said, younger generations do not seem to be as set up for adulthood as previous generations. It could be just a perception from what we see in social media, not sure.

[FjordBCRF]

@Ajierene

While I agree with this, I also see programs where an individuals is complaining about lack of housing and this single, child free individuals is worried about the school district. Like everything from the conversations says they do not have a plan to have a child in the next 5 years but I guess just in case? and just in case they do not decide to move?

I’ve been lucky to live in pretty good area all my life, but as a childfree person, location and school still matter in terms of resale value and speed to sell a home.

[fivestrideline]

I would worry about school districts as a child-free person in relation to resale value of a house. Particularly a fixer-upper where your profit/break even margin may be capped. Outside of that, it might be a lack of understanding of how real estate even works - and no small amount of unrealistic expectations of The Lifestyle that is such a measure of success. Not that that is anything new.

I think the core of the issue is that in general, wages have not increased at the same rate that costs have. The job market is not what it was even ten years ago. A lot of the Standard Advice like “get a degree and work hard so you can climb the corporate ladder” is often unrealistic - at best outdated and at worst predatory.

As a side thought - in the past, you only “had” to keep up with the Joneses next door. Now “The Joneses” includes people from across the world who may or may not be lying online about how they fund that lifestyle. It takes a lot of awareness and self introspection to wake up to that. I see it in the juniors and pony kids who (as kids do) think that The Style is the most important thing. Kiddos don’t want to hear from Mom that they are focused on the wrong thing, but not too long ago it wasn’t the billionaire’s kids we were jealous of in Podunkville. It was just the slightly better off neighbors down the road. And it wasn’t being beamed into our brains 24/7 like today.

Idk this went sideways a bit but a lot of it really is That D*mn Phone. And there are a lot of challenges facing young people today that older generations have never experienced.

[MHM]

@Ajierene

my first thought was - well yeah, just clean off where the saddle and bridle go and off you go

I really, seriously, genuinely intended to do this not long ago on a day when I was pressed for time.

But when push came to shove, I just could not go through with it. I had to clean the whole horse, even if it was maybe not quite up to my usual standard. Lol.

[albytb]

I also couldn’t do it. Like they don’t need to be pristine per se but it just feels wrong lol

[Ajierene]

I guess yes and no on the school districts and resale value. I have seen so many inconsistent things in the housing market in my area that I don’t necessarily believe any of the hype anymore.

I was told “houses always go up in value”…well, I bought at what turned out to be the height of the market and 5 years late my house was worth half of what I paid. It did take longer for my house to really start going back up because after that a good number of people moved out or died and a rental company bought those houses for a very low cost. But that had less to do with the neighborhood/location and more to do with the age of the people living in these houses - they had been there for 40+ years and the “move out” was to retirement homes. We are getting more purchases at decent prices in the last few years and according to Zillow my house is now worth more than I paid for it some 20 years ago.

My brother dabbles in rentals so I have seen house buying/selling in the area, in different school districts and neighborhoods. My friend is also trying to sell her 13 acre “turn key” farm with a pool and a sauna and no takers. There seems to be no pattern you can look at for size/type/neighborhood - I think interests fluctuate so much that even a nice house in a nice school district may not sell because of some reason that seems so innocuous to the outside observer.

I do agree that part of the problem is that you can see what people are doing all over the world so much easier than prior to the internet. As such, people are more aware of other cultures but they are also more sensitive to what is percieved as a “good life”.

They complain about budget but HAVE to buy that new iPhone every year or two years. The HAVE to have a new car with all the bells and whistles. They HAVE to have the latest gadget. This is not everyone, but I have talked to people like this - they say they are broke so I say don’t buy the next iPhone that comes out, pay off that one and don’t have that extra $15/month on your cell phone bill. But nope, they need it - cable TV or extra streaming serves.

When I have been in very low income times, I have paused or cancelled some streaming services. I paid and extra $25 for unlimited hotspot with my phone carrier and did not use internet in my house because my only other option was $70/month Xfinity or $50/month for the one satellite company available at the time. Then I talk to some 20-something and they just can’t seem to do that.

[BeeHoney]

@Amberley

I think the point is that you cannot make money on only 20 horses if you board and show and train and are off property a lot. There is no way you can make that work because there are not enough hours in the day and you are too small to afford staff.

There are a lot of logistical issues related to the size of a horse business. I completely agree that to make the numbers work for a regular boarding/training/showing facility, you generally need larger numbers. Additionally, logistically, horse businesses work out better if you have enough horses to hire multiple employees–enough employees to cover for sick and vacation time or to cover after someone leaves or is let go until another person can be hired. And enough employees that you can cover some evening hours, because if you have adult amateur clients, they are at the barn after work.

But the more horses you have, the more burdensome the risks get. What if there’s a snowstorm and no one can make it to work? You’ve got 40 horses to care for. What if hay prices go through the roof? You’ve got to move quickly getting your prices raised. What if a key employee quits or more than one employee quits at a time? What if a water main breaks and you have 40 horses to haul water to? Typically a BO is already working some hours at the facility and can fill in, but when you have 40 horses, that’s can get overwhelming. Additionally, 40 horses is often more or less 30 horse clients that you have to deal with. That alone can be exhausting–more exhausting than 40 horses in a snowstorm. It’s a really tough balance, wanting to have a financially functional facility, but also not wanting to get burned out.

[fivestrideline]

I’ve done sole charge of 40 show hunters and yeah, that was Not Sustainable. They were supposed to hire another full time person and some non-horsey staff for maintenance but they just… didn’t. I lasted about three months. You can have the nicest horses and best facility, but good staff makes or breaks a place. And good staff don’t stick around when they’re being asked for miracles on minimum wage!

[dmveventer]

@Ajierene

It reminds me of something my sis-in-law mentions - she doesn’t understand how anyone raises a child o n an annual income of $60K (not sure where she got that number). I kind of roll my eyes - well, you see, they don’t have a house with a pool, they don’t go on away every weekend and several vacations per year, they aren’t looking for a beach house or rent a beach house for a week with the extended family, etc.

Sorry but you’re the one off-base here. $60k for a family of three doesn’t get you anywhere close to the lifestyle you’re describing. According to the MIT living wage calculator, a living wage (aka just meeting basic needs) for a family of three in Mississippi (one of the most affordable states in the country) is still a household income of $70k.

It sounds like you live in an extremely LCOL area (with free board on top of that) which is leading you to vastly underestimate how expensive it is to keep horses (and just to exist) in most parts of the country. I’m glad you aren’t feeling the same pressure the rest of us are but it’s not reflective of reality for most people.

@Ajierene

I have trouble understanding how you think you couldn’t afford a horse with your income if you had a child BUT that is so location and individual preference dependent - what are the options in your area? What are your must haves?

Average daycare costs in my area are twice what I pay for board. Not to mention the increase in housing, food, and other baseline costs even before you consider any discretionary expenses for the kid. I definitely couldn’t afford to do both even with a partner also working. Almost all of the women at my barn are either childless or took 10+ years off from riding to raise their kids before coming back.

[Ajierene]

@dmveventer

Sorry but you’re the one off-base here. $60k for a family of three doesn’t get you anywhere close to the lifestyle you’re describing. According to the MIT living wage calculator, a living wage (aka just meeting basic needs) for a family of three in Mississippi (one of the most affordable states in the country) is still a household income of $70k.

I think you missed my point. My sis-in-law said she doesn’t understand how people raise children on that wage and I said that’s because they (the people making $60K/year) DON’T take all the vacations/outings/etc. As in, my sis-in-law DOES but my sis-iin-law is raising kids on probably 3 times that (the $60K/year) salary. So she can afford all the extras.

I already stated that it is unfair for me to state that it is easy to keep horses on my income BECAUSE I KNOW I don’t pay for board - that’s why when discussions like this happen, I look up how much board is in my area. I have, in the distant past, paid board but you cannot compare $300/horse field board 15+ years ago to today.

As per your secod quote, my comment was aimed at wondering how someone who is self-described upper middle class could not afford both a (as in one) child and a horse - FjordBCRF already explained in post 176 that it was due to level of care that poster expects/would want in both caring for a horse and a child. In other words, it can be done but not at the expected level of care. I am not sure why you are adding in your supposition. I know a lot of families that raised children and had horses but like I stated earlier - location and expectations dependent.

[FjordBCRF]

@Ajierene

As per your secod quote, my comment was aimed at wondering how someone who is self-described upper middle class could not afford both a (as in one) child and a horse - FjordBCRF already explained in post 176 that it was due to level of care that poster expects/would want in both caring for a horse and a child.

You’re leaving out a key piece in that statement I made. I said if I had a kid, I would not be able to keep my horse at the standard of care I currently can AND retire comfortably. Could I technically afford both? Yes. Could I have an extra 20ish% more cash each month that I’m currently investing? I could, but setting myself up later in life is very important and I’m not willing to sacrifice that either.

[FjordBCRF]

@Ajierene

In other words, it can be done but not at the expected level of care. I am not sure why you are adding in your supposition. I know a lot of families that raised children and had horses but like I stated earlier - location and expectations dependent.

Regarding the bolding; yes in the past this was more possible for more people. Today, everyone is living a lot tighter.

[Ajierene]

You are correct, I missed adding that in. But that’s part of the point, I guess - you have a certain lifestyle expectation of yourself, any hypothetical child, and comfortable retirement (which may or may not include staying in the same house opposed to downsizing).

I am in no way making a judgement call on that and think it is admirable that you are able to make those knowledgeable decisions.

My point is only that it can be accomplished at your income level, in your area - it would require sacrifices you are not willing to make. Again, perfectly acceptable but also a different part of the same conversation.

Like you and I would never board at the same barn (unless I was working off my board) because our values related to income are different and hence I do not have the money you have.

I feel lucky right now that I can keep my horse where I do as I have made compromises before in order to keep a horse at my income level and I didn’t always like them. They never stretched to the realm of horse neglect, but were just not my ideal horsekeeping. I also do not have much of anything saved for retirement, live paycheck to paycheck, and have more time than money - I’m working on trying to change that but a lot of factors are currently making that a bit of an obstacle. Anyway, that’s not important to this conversation - just to high light the different worlds you and I live in.

[FjordBCRF]

@Ajierene

Like you and I would never board at the same barn (unless I was working off my board) because our values related to income are different and hence I do not have the money you have.

Let me clarify here. I’m not at a fancy barn. It’s 100% private. There are 14 total horses, half of which belong to the BO. She has a single employee that lives on site and handles nearly everything. I and another boarder pitch in every weekend so he can have his days off and things can still be consistent. I come up every day to do the “extras” I prefer my horse to have (weigh and prep haybags and prep his am/pm meals and meds for the week) to not make anymore work for anyone.

We do have an indoor, warm water, and a toilet, but it’s far from what one might think $900/month should get you.

[Ajierene]

I will clarify - I pay $0 for horse board. Currently, I can afford $0 for horse board (ok maybe $100 if I do some maneuvering). I have never in my life paid $900 for board - but also, the last time I paid board was 15+ years ago. Still, the most I spent on board was $375/horse.

Even the most expensive place I boarded at, the value was about $750/month (I started out paying about 1/2 that and working off the rest and eventually worked enough to not pay at all) - field board, eat on the fence and an effort was made to tie the dominant horses if they stole others’ food but the quality of that effort depending on who was feeding. Grass hay, out in the field. (NOTE: this facility does have an indoor and an unfinished bath but you could use the toilet, and hot/cold water in the wash stall. My horse did not have a stall).

As I stated - we are not going to be boarding at the same place unless I’m working off the board.

I’m not trying to say you (or anyone else) is in some fancy, high end boutique facility - just expressing where my budget it compared to yours (or someone else’s). Some of that has to do with expectations. You want to weigh your hay - I have never felt the need and have never been in a situation where I could. One isn’t better than the other, just different expectations.

[Montanas_Girl]

I worked off my board as a college and grad student. The last place I boarded as a student charged, at the time, $550/month for their lowest tier board package. I was credited $8/hour (slightly over the $7.25 minimum wage at the time).

Today, almost twenty years later, that same boarding tier at that same barn is $1200/month. And minimum wage is still $7.25/hour.

Lifestyle inflation is not nearly as big a problem as is the fact that wages, particularly at the lower socioeconomic level, have not kept pace with overall inflation for the entirety of my adult life.

I keep four horses at home now, with an extremely high standard of care, for less than it would cost to board one, even in my fairly LCOL area.

[dmveventer]

No I understood your point, I just disagree with it. You seem convinced that anyone who can’t afford horses just has unrealistic expectations. The reality is that most people can’t afford it no matter how much they cut back, the math just doesn’t work. Someone raising a kid on $60k a year isn’t making ends meet just by cutting out vacations and swimming pools - they typically aren’t making ends meet at all. Some people may choose not to have kids and horses because they can’t afford both comfortably, but a lot of my upper middle class peers they just can’t afford both at all even if they make compromises. I know my budget and I could not afford to have a kid and a horse in my area even if I stopped saving entirely and cut my expenses to the bare minimum. I have friends who don’t have horses who still don’t feel like they can afford kids given the ridiculous costs of housing and daycare.

You live in an area where houses can be purchased for $100k when the average house price in the US is $370k - I don’t think you have a realistic frame of reference for even average costs of living.

@Montanas_Girl

Lifestyle inflation is not nearly as big a problem as is the fact that wages, particularly at the lower socioeconomic level, have not kept pace with overall inflation for the entirety of my adult life.

Preach.

[hey101]

@Ajierene

I will clarify - I pay $0 for horse board. Currently, I can afford $0 for horse board (ok maybe $100 if I do some maneuvering). I have never in my life paid $900 for board - but also, the last time I paid board was 15+ years ago. Still, the most I spent on board was $375/horse

The extra color here has been interesting and for sure I’m in one of the highest HCOL areas in the country – southern California.

But to address the comment I quoted, I don’t want people working off board. notoriously unreliable (this is not directed at YOU Ajierene) you cannot have a sustainable business model with people that really don’t have skin in the game and they text you the morning of the day they’re supposed to do stalls or whatever and say whatever it is they say…

I quite quickly shut down the “work off the board situation. “

Also touch on another recent comment. About how staff makes or breaks you. I commented how we hired someone to help us with Stalls and then in the spring of the following year when I handed him his 1099 he got very Squirrley and asked if we could falsify the information. In full disclosure I did not take a social. I just hired a guy to help us muck Stalls out. And I know he was supporting other barns in the area so 1099 was appropriate.

It’s amazing how educated you become over the years on all these various topics.

[FjordBCRF]

@dmveventer

No I understood your point, I just disagree with it. You seem convinced that anyone who can’t afford horses just has unrealistic expectations

Same. Norms are/have been changing, and quickly at that. I make more money in corporate at 41 years old annually than my dad did as a dentist in a rural, LCOL area in Ohio. I’m only a county over from where he practiced, and closer to the greater Cleveland area which is still considered LCOL nationally.

Around the time my parents were my age, they bought 25 acres to start designing their dream home which they built after a couple years, bought the horse for me we had been leasing, when we retired her they bought me a second horse to start, were able to buy me a new car AND pay for 4 years of college at a private university when it was time for that. If I recall, my childhood horse was $2500 so we’re not talking something flashy and fancy and the one we got for me to start I think was $3000.

Not a chance we could swing that today and still be financially comfortable, even in a more rural area.