Interesting Article on Treeless Saddles

[candyappy]

[QUOTE=PRS;5993646]
My treeless saddle (a Sensation Hybrid) http://www.freedomtreeless.com/G3HT.html ) is much more substanstial than just a bareback pad with stirrups. It has been carefully designed to distribute the weight from the stirrups and girth throughout the entire saddle. It has structure, knee rolls, and a twist and is made from quality leather. It has layered foam making up the pressure distributing panels under the seat. I also use a quality pad made specifically for my saddle with it to further distribute weight and disperse pressure. There are several manufacturers of name brand treeless saddles they are all different in their own way. Some are better than others at distributing pressure, some are better on certain shapes of horses than others. The Sensations work best with horses that have low to medium withers, flat backs and round barrels…that doesn’t mean they can’t work on other shapes. Some models have hard pommel inserts and hard cantles while keeping the seat free of hard parts…the Sensations have no hard parts at all.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for explaining that so well. My horse is the round model you mention above!! I wish I could try one on her and see how she would respond, but they are too pricey for me and I doubt there are even any used ones around, much less someone who could help with fitting it!

[Lifting_Chickk]

[QUOTE=Bogie;5995453]
If the test was done with an Ansur Carlton, a lot depends on whether it was done with an older model (no gullet) or a newer one, which has the gullet.

My own experience with treeless saddles has led me to the conclusion (sample size of two horses and four treeless saddles) is that those saddles without gullets require a special pad to create one.[/QUOTE]

Not sure about the test study, but my Carlton is the newer model with the gullet. Still not enough without a pad.

[katyb]

[QUOTE=candyappy;5995559]
Well, Thank You!!

I guess I haven’t seen those brands before. Where does all the padding and inserts go? What do they have in place of a solid tree? Having no experience ,I am not against treeless saddles but I do find it hard to believe that they would be very stable on a round backed horse, especially when mounting from the ground ( having a horse with no mane).[/QUOTE]

I have no problem mounting any of my horses from the ground with my Bandos Trail saddle and Haf pad. I actually have an easier time than any of my friends who use treed saddles.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=PRS;5993613]
Yet there are are still thousands of horses running around with ill fitting treed saddles with excessive pressure points, sore backs, and atrophied muscles from use of same. <snip>…

Endurance riders (whose horses are regularly checked by vets) are moving to treeless saddles in droves. I really don’t think your argument holds up very well…[/QUOTE]

The article was not complete that’s for sure… no detailed information whatsoever…

and wanted to comment on the above quote - you bring up an extremely valid point - Endurance horses are vetted AS THEY COMPETE and your typical H/J, Western, reining etc competions are NOT. Hmmmmm…

Proof is in the proof!

[5chestnuts]

^ Yup. And if you present a horse with a sore back at any check during the endurance ride, the vet will pull your horse from the competition.

All the more reason to have a saddle that is uber-comfortable and as perfectly fitted as possible for that horse going 25-50-100 miles in one day, or 150+ miles on a pioneer. Hence the reason most endurance riders opt for the treeless. It moves and forms with the way of going and shape of the horse.

I foxhunt in my treeless…and love it.

[saratoga]

All of the excitement over this is pretty silly- as others have said, if a saddle is working for your horse, use it! You dont need a study to tell you anything.

I’m an endurance rider as well as eventer and jumper and I do prefer treed saddles personally. Generally speaking, I just like the way I feel in them better. Maybe thats because I started riding in English disciplines as opposed to endurance. I’ve tried different 5 different brands of treeless but I’ve never found any that I thought put me in a good position for either jumping or dressage. I really disliked the Bob Marshall that I had- my legs felt spread wide and in front of me. I did an LD in it once and thought I was going to die, I was so sore. I have a Barefoot Cheyenne and I like it OK, but for each of my horses and my activities, I found a saddle that worked better and they all happened to have trees.

But totally, whatever works for your horse. Its ridiculous to have such strong feelings either way!

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=saratoga;5996128]
All of the excitement over this is pretty silly- as others have said, if a saddle is working for your horse, use it! You dont need a study to tell you anything.

I’m an endurance rider as well as eventer and jumper and I do prefer treed saddles personally. Generally speaking, I just like the way I feel in them better. Maybe thats because I started riding in English disciplines as opposed to endurance. I’ve tried different 5 different brands of treeless but I’ve never found any that I thought put me in a good position for either jumping or dressage. I really disliked the Bob Marshall that I had- my legs felt spread wide and in front of me. I did an LD in it once and thought I was going to die, I was so sore. I have a Barefoot Cheyenne and I like it OK, but for each of my horses and my activities, I found a saddle that worked better and they all happened to have trees.

But totally, whatever works for your horse. Its ridiculous to have such strong feelings either way![/QUOTE]

I so understand what you are saying…I grew up riding bareback and then rode English so it did take me a while to find a treeless I liked that felt balanced. I bought a Freeform years ago and use it on trail rides and for mounted police work. You can sit in it for hours and my horses never have sore backs… and yay it fits both horses. I know there are a lot of really nice looking treeless saddles out there but weeding through them is a lot of work. I didn’t like the Barefoot or the Bob Marshal - too wide of a spread for me… I like a twist so the Freeform fit the bill.

I compete and ride daily in a treed saddle for both Dressage and jumping and love them both… So I am not pro one or the other - however either one Treed or treeless MUST FIT horse and rider and that’s not always an easy task.

And still don’t believe treeless saddles are bad at all expecially given the evidence.

[RillRill]

ooooooooh I was going to start a new treeless thread but looks like I didn’t have to!!
I would love love love to have a treed, beautifully made leather German dressage saddle to prance around on on my Arabian gelding. 3 years and 25 saddles later, lost topline, white hairs, sad cranky horse, frustrated me, before I went out on a limb without knowing anything about them…and bought myself a treeless saddle (Cheyenne, I was mean to upgrade if it “worked” and 6 years later I am finally in the position to do so) Honestly if I did not take this plunge I would probably just keep horses as pasture pets - no riding. me and that horse have since done dressage, x county, show jumping, campdrafting trail riding etc, and it’s all thanks to me diving into the unknown. The results speak for themselves. All my horses (8 so far) have perfect backs from being ridden in this saddle, my friends ask to borrow it when they are having trouble with saddle fitting issues. My other friend now uses them on all her horses too. You cannot deny what your horse is trying to tell you. A jig jogging horse out on a trail ride, tossing head, champing at the bit, wearing a typical Aussie fender, swap saddles (to my Cheyenne); instant transformation. Head down, relaxed, chewing, long strides, walking etc. If the rider of this horse did not see it for themselves they wouldn’t have believed it. I am an Equine massage therapist so keep a constant eye on my horse’s back muscles. All my horses have lovely toplines.
On another note, seeing as there are lot of treeless people here now; I am thinking of getting the Fhoenix? I have searched this forum and others for info, have seen lots, but personal opinions? I had it on trial for 3 days - my TB loved it, as did my Arab, (and my lower back bulging discs ADORED it!) but it is pricey and I want it to last for years. Think it will?

[Ridge_Runner]

RillRill…my Fhoenix is a 2006 model and is in great shape. Now I don’t endurance ride in it but it has gotten decent use. It is good quality leather and seems to hold up fairly well.

I’d like very much to try their AP model. I would prefer a more forward flap for trails. They are expensive though.

This has been a very informative discussion. I will say that if a horse can do endurance…50 to 100 mile rides all season long in a treeless than it’s pretty obvious that the saddles are not harming these horses. I’m in the school of “whatever works” but I found myself with a difficult to fit horse and ended up going the treeless route. I have no regrets and now treed saddles seem uncomfortable to me.

[Bogie]

@RillRill;5996303

I am thinking of getting the Fhoenix? I have searched this forum and others for info, have seen lots, but personal opinions? I had it on trial for 3 days - my TB loved it, as did my Arab, (and my lower back bulging discs ADORED it!) but it is pricey and I want it to last for years. Think it will?

I bought one off the boards here. I’m not sure how old it is but it is in lovely condition and the leather is very nice. It looks like it’s going to hold up very well.

I have the A/P GPT for people with long legs. If you are patient, you can find them used.

[RillRill]

Thanks Bogie & Daydream B. I really loved the saddle to ride in, and the more I think about it the more sense it makes to get one. I ride every day, morning and night, so any saddle I get will get a LOT of use, and needs to be able to stand up to it. Daydream I love your website, your horses are gorgeous. Cayuse Gold is just heart melting. Is that the Fhoenix on him down the bottom of his page? It looks so…normal!
Bogie, I have been looking extensively for second hand ones since July, I am in Oz tho, even getting them brand new seems to be an issue.
Perhaps I should just bite the bullet and get one…
ta

[PRS]

[QUOTE=RillRill;5996596]
Thanks Bogie & Daydream B. I really loved the saddle to ride in, and the more I think about it the more sense it makes to get one. I ride every day, morning and night, so any saddle I get will get a LOT of use, and needs to be able to stand up to it. Daydream I love your website, your horses are gorgeous. Cayuse Gold is just heart melting. Is that the Fhoenix on him down the bottom of his page? It looks so…normal!
Bogie, I have been looking extensively for second hand ones since July, I am in Oz tho, even getting them brand new seems to be an issue.
Perhaps I should just bite the bullet and get one…
ta :)[/QUOTE]

Should you like more input on different saddles you might want to consider, I urge you to join the treeless saddles group on Yahoo! Groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/treelesssaddles/ This is a very active group with lots of first hand experience on many different models of Treeless Saddles. Also, many times, used saddles come up for sale. The membership is all over the globe too…chances are someone is in your area.

[saratoga]

[QUOTE=RillRill;5996303]
limb without knowing anything about them…and bought myself a treeless saddle (Cheyenne, I was mean to upgrade if it “worked” and 6 years later I am finally in the position to do so) Honestly if I did not take this plunge I would probably just keep horses as pasture pets - no riding. me and that horse have since done dressage, x county, show jumping, campdrafting trail riding etc, and it’s all thanks to me diving into the unknown. [/QUOTE]

Do you do eventing in a Barefoot Cheyenne? I cant imagine that- its a comfy saddle for trail riding but I cant imagine doing dressage or jumping in it- especially x-c (yikes!). The position it puts you in doesnt lend itself to either.

[Equibrit]

Check this out; http://www.solution-saddles.co.uk/

and this; http://www.saddleresearchgroup.co.uk/index.html

[RillRill]

[QUOTE=PRS;5996747]
Should you like more input on different saddles you might want to consider, I urge you to join the treeless saddles group on Yahoo! Groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/treelesssaddles/ This is a very active group with lots of first hand experience on many different models of Treeless Saddles. Also, many times, used saddles come up for sale. The membership is all over the globe too…chances are someone is in your area.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I am already part of it and I don’t know if I’m an idiot but cannot find any. I’ve also extensively researched all models and think this is the winner.

saratoga I kind of cheated in that respect - I did all my schooling in it, then used a friend’s la dee dah county dressage & prestige jumping saddle for the actual events. Neither of them fitted him AT ALL but for the 6 minutes or so it was ok. But I jump up to 90cm in my cheyenne (we only did baby eventing!) and have always cantered/galloped in 2 point with no problems on all horses. I don’t find a problem with my position at all. I guess I’m just so used to it now. I have stopped jumping due to my back problems and my horse’s hocks, and thought I might concentrate more on dressage…that’s why I thought about the Fhoenix - I can school & use it in comps.

[wendy]

But, I don’t understand the claims that a treeless saddle can distribute weight. Pretty much by definition, if you wish to distribute the weight of the rider’s seat to any area not directly under the seat, you need something stiff. No foam, no matter how wonderful, can distribute weight to a place that is not under the force.

well, as mentioned above, the stiff treed saddle wasn’t actually invented to “distribute weight”, that seems to be a post hoc rationalization for keeping it in the saddles.

If you go back to pressure sores, which is the only real science I can think of that seems very applicable to saddles, you have immobile person, weight coming down and pressing skin between the body weight and the surface below.
Initial thought a) you only get pressure sores if the person can’t move around and relieve the pressure/ move the pressure to a different part of the skin, which fits in well with the idea mentioned above that a saddle that evenly distributed weight to the same skin surface the entire time the rider was mounted might be more detrimental to the horse than a saddle that distributes weight to different parts of the skin as the rider shifts position; and b) they don’t try to use “stiff” materials to “distribute weight” from one area of skin to surrounding areas of skin for avoiding pressure sores- instead they use fancy foams and gels and other semi-rigid materials, probably because they “flow” to fill in gaps etc. and help surrounding areas to begin supporting weight. Because skin surfaces aren’t flat.
They use the same materials in most “pressure relieving” situations- shoe insoles, mats for standing on, what have you.

[Ridge_Runner]

@RillRill;5996596

Thanks Bogie & Daydream B. I really loved the saddle to ride in, and the more I think about it the more sense it makes to get one. I ride every day, morning and night, so any saddle I get will get a LOT of use, and needs to be able to stand up to it. Daydream I love your website, your horses are gorgeous. Cayuse Gold is just heart melting. Is that the Fhoenix on him down the bottom of his page? It looks so…normal!
Bogie, I have been looking extensively for second hand ones since July, I am in Oz tho, even getting them brand new seems to be an issue.
Perhaps I should just bite the bullet and get one…
ta

Thanks Rill Rill for the nice comments on my horses. Yes that is the Fhoenix on Cayuse Gold. It’s the only saddle he ever liked! He’s my “prince and the pea” horse (like the Princess and the Pea fairytale). If there is anything uncomfortable about what you put on his back, he’ll first balk and not want to go forward. If you ignore him, you may end up on the ground. Give him his treeless saddle and he’s happy and never naughty. He sure told me what he liked!

BTW, my treed saddle for him was professionally fitted for him. He hates it.

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=wendy;5997857]
they don’t try to use “stiff” materials to “distribute weight” from one area of skin to surrounding areas of skin for avoiding pressure sores- instead they use fancy foams and gels and other semi-rigid materials, probably because they “flow” to fill in gaps etc. and help surrounding areas to begin supporting weight. Because skin surfaces aren’t flat.
They use the same materials in most “pressure relieving” situations- shoe insoles, mats for standing on, what have you.[/QUOTE]

Remember, you can’t distribute weight across a larger area without rigidity. It’s not possible. But there are different ways to achieve rigidity, and it seems like several of these makers are experimenting with rigidity with substantial variations on a traditional tree. It’s not necessary for the rigidity to be against the horse for it to work, and it’s not necessary for the rigidity to be as complete as in a normal tree. The use of foams and gels and cushions can even out pressure under the part that is rigid (under a rigid panel, under the body of the rider), and they can distribute it in time to minimize shock, but they cannot disperse the pressure outside the area of the rider’s body without some rigidity transferring the force.

Think of a mattress on a bed. It feels soft, but it is a soft layer over a rigid frame, that then transfers your weight to the legs of the bed.

[siennawilliam012]

This is really nice article. I love Bob Marshall treeless saddle. They fit a wide variety of horses Treeless saddles offer riders an approach to horsemanship from a natural perspective. These saddles provide maximum comfort and enjoyment for riders and their horses.

[luvmyapp]

Be very careful of Bob Marshall saddles. I was having trouble with my guy bucking- this is a horse that in 3 years NEVER bucked or even acted like he wanted to. Got a saddle fitter out - the rigging on the Bob was off. One side was placed further forward which caused the saddle twist on him. I thought it was just me - I found myself pushing into the forward stirrup, enough so it gimped up my hip. I never put together it was the saddle, I mean, it was a bob, after all! I am not a fan of riding w/a saddle at all, but really liked the contact of the bob. Here was the ‘real’ problem. I called Bob - sent very detailed pictures. I was confident they would stand by thier product - boy was I wrong. I was told - “I will leave a message for the manager, but don’t expect a call back.” (the ‘manager’ is the wife) They completely did not care that it was not a warranty issues, but workman ship issues. I was welcome to send it back at my expense, they were more than happy to fix it - at my expense, and of course send it back to me - at my expense. This was a $1600 saddle.
The saddle fitter later told me that bob has contacted Circle Y - asking them to buy him out, he was ready to retire. Since circle Y has thier own treeless now, they were not interested.
I realize this has nothing to do w/the article - but wanted to take the opportunity to let others know, since bob has been referenced several times in this thread. I did enjoy the comfort of the saddle - but just beware folks, makes me wonder if the quality is overall going down hill.