Thank you for posting this; it’s thought provoking, especially coming from someone as respected
as she is.
I do wonder though, what caused the change in training ? Was it a result of taking short cuts,
or is it that the trainers didn’t know better ?
And why did the judges start to reward incorrect riding ?
I completely agree.
I have never been a good enough rider to ride or train dressage since I have Multiple sclerosis. I ride Forward Seat, ala Littauer, but I also use a double bridle the vast majority of the time nowadays. I have told my riding teachers that ANY hint of the horse going behind the vertical is unacceptable to me, and to yell at me and keep on yelling at me if the horses I ride (lesson horses nowadays) EVER go behind the vertical.
For the last decade or so I have not seen videos or pictures of dressage riding instructors or trainers that I would take lessons from or send a horse for training because the vast majority of their horses, whether ridden by the expert or by their students, move behind the vertical over 99% of the time. I see no reason why I should spend hundreds of dollars learning how to ride improperly, that is something I find all too easy to do by myself.
Modern dressage books are also at fault here. I have not bought a modern dressage book for many, many years because each and every picture has the horse behind the vertical. When the experts ride behind the vertical, when the books by experts show every single rider riding behind the vertical, it now seems to be the new “approved” normal to emulate by all of us not so good riders.
What really gets my goat is the dressage books that have a thorough anatomical and gait analysis that all PROVE that riding behind the vertical is bad for the horse’s body. I read these passages and eagerly go to the rest of the book–where every single rider has his/her horse moving behind the vertical.
If I, with MS, can ride in contact with a double bridle with the horse keeping its nose forward of vertical, and with the horse willingly reaching out for contact with my imperfect hands and not going behind the vertical, then why are these supposedly so much better riders whose nervous systems are not damaged riding ALL their horses behind the vertical?
Hey, on the days my nervous system is not too bad, I can even keep contact with just the Weymouth curb with 5" shanks with the horse always keeping its nose forward, leading the horse’s motion. I just tie up my bridoon rein so it is sagging a good bit, ask the horse to move into contact with just the curb, and over 90% of the time the horses cheerfully move into contact. My very experienced hunt seat riding teacher LIKES to see me ride with contact with just the curb because the horses reach for the bit, do not fuss about my hands, and always stay in front of vertical. I do not do it all the time, but the horses do not cuss me out when I do it and they always stay in front of the vertical. If the horse says anything bad about this contact I just go back to the bridoon because it is obvious to me that on that day my hands are just not good enough to keep contact with the curb bit.
Why can’t the top competitive dressage riders in the world do the same??? A rider can get real collection without the horse going behind the vertical.
After a lot of thought I’ve come to the conclusion that one reason why this might be so prevalent is that the judges, riding teachers and dressage trainers for some reason seem to think that if the horse is not behind the vertical that the horse is not “through” and is not really on contact.
We need better examples of proper dressage riding both in the riding ring and in the dressage books we all read. Ban all pictures of riding horses behind the vertical–a woman can dream an impossible dream.
Not disagreeing w/ the over all idea but something to consider.
I was in an eventing clinic w/ someone I respect very much. She said the modern dressage/sport horse are bred to have very bendy, up out of the shoulders neck so they are exceptionally easy to get “round” - I assume neck only - so the horse isn’t necessarily through it’s back. Add in the exceptionally huge gaits, w/ a hot and forward personality - I expect that it is very hard ride to get the horse to stay out reaching for the bridle while maintaining some sense of a civilized gait (speaking young horses here). **this is only my imagination - I have never sat on such a beast.
Sometimes I parallel the modern dressage horse (has it gone to far?) w/ that of the modern bucking bull (I read an article where one predicted we would eventually get to unrideable bulls)
My very first horse was an 5 yr. old green broke Anglo-Arab gelding. I could easily fit my clenched fist between his jaw bones.
My first really serious riding teacher (graduate BHSI of the 1st class at Morven Park), at about my third lesson on him warned me about riding behind the vertical. I still remember her words, a little bit paraphrased since it was 54 years ago) "When a horseman sees you ride you horse behind the vertical they know that you DO NOT KNOW HOW TO RIDE PROPERLY.
She then showed me on my horse how to SEE if he was behind the vertical. It is simple, from the 2nd cervical vertebrae forward the horse’s neck should be HORIZONTAL AND FLAT. She then told me of some of the dangers inherent in controlling a horse with its face behind the vertical, the unseemly mouth movements, the danger of the horse planting its chin against his neck and running away and improper movement of the horse.
After that I went on to the Forward Seat method which is in full agreement with what my BHSI instructor told me. I ALWAYS make a point to frequently check the top of my horse’s neck from CV2 forward so I do not commit the grievous (to me) sin of riding the horse behind vertical.
I trained my first horse from green broke to a horse (completely ala Littauer, Forward Seat) that a state reward winning dressage rider, her barn owner, and then a week later her dressage riding instructor kept on commenting on how relaxed, obedient ("you ask him to do some thing and he just does it!), supple and totally nonresistant my horse was. Her dressage teacher told the rider to buy my horse, no hesitation at all.
One CAN train a horse to be light in hand, responsive, obedient, and cheerfully cooperative when the horse has its face in front of the vertical. In the older dressage books with photographs, the majority of the photographs has the horse’s face at or slightly in front of vertical.
Imagine my shock when, after years of going on my own, I got on the COTH forums when several dressage riders defended the practice of Rollkur. Imagine my shock when the vast majority of the photographs in modern dressage books by internationally recognized riders and trainers, show EVERY horse behind the vertical when on contact.
If I ever take dressage lessons it will only be from a teacher who personally rides and whose students ride with their horse’s faces either at or slightly forward of vertical. I just do not have the energy or money right now to go on a desperate search for a dressage instructor of this now extremely endangered “species”.
I ride ARABS, the original “very bendy, up out of the shoulders neck” in front of the vertical, and I tend to ride Arabs who have some slope to their croup who can use their backs. It really is not that hard.
To be fair, there’s a big difference between an Arab and a modern warmblood with a long, hypermobile neck. The latter have much more of a struggle carrying their necks with the poll at the highest point, even when turned out. They tend to be BTV even at play.
Specious argument in light of the fact that many successful top level dressage horses of the past were Anglo Arab
First, didn’t know it was an argument and thought it more of an observation. Second, I would hazard a guess that the power and amplitude of the gaits in the modern dressage horse is not the same as an Anglo Arab of the past. I guess I should say that a super flexible neck and huge forward gaits would be far beyond my humble skill to develop correctly and is probably very hard. Couple that w/ the push to “develop” them quickly and then we have the problem that we see today.
YES.
Often riding today’s WB dressage horses properly is beyond the abilities of most (not all) riders.
Like all subjectively judged horse disciplines, once dressage became a competition stream, style started to replace form and correctness. Yes, over bent is biomechanically wrong and understood as a big fault up until about 30 years ago. No, it isn’t inherent to warm bloods or Arabs or whatever. It is something that is taught and not corrected because it presents a currently fashionable outline or picture to most dressage riders eyes. They conflate over bent with collected. Similar style over function errors creep into Western Pleasure, Saddle seat, etc. sometimes to a crippling extent.
Being overbent can throw a horse on the forehand and contribute to the flinging knees/ trailing hocks unbalanced trot that is rewarded as an “extended trot” these days, in dressage or saddle seat. So being overbent may be strategically useful for both dressage and saddle seat because the unbalanced gaits it can produce are highly desirable in that competition environment.
Just so agree. Most of my ‘learning’ does come from books or magazines, it is hard to learn what is right without seeing it.
Thank goodness someone of her calibre is speaking up. When the little guys speak up they are ridiculed and disparaged and face ridiculous comments asking how many Olympics they’ve won. Even though in every other sport fans can comment on player/athlete performance in the horse world it is verboten which is sick and twisted.
Martzog was Anne Gretta Jensen’s horse, not Stuckleberger’s.
Granat was Christine’s most famous horse (Gold medalist Montreal Games 1976)
(((:-)) sorry… it was a long tome ago. I will remve my idiot post.
It wasn’t an idiot post at all…I just have a very clear memory of watching Christine on the giant Granat and wondering how the heck a petite rider could ride that horse…and then I learned about George Wahl :-)…which doesn’t take anything away from Christine’s ability as a rider.
Great article in Eurodressage about Granat, Wahl and Stuckleburger.
That is because the “modern warmblood” is a repurposed work horse, not a riding horse.
Back “in the dark ages” there were “riding horses” and “work horses.” Riding horses were horses that were comfortable for a rider…ergo, no big gaits. The typical breeds of riding horses were typically “hotbloods” such as TB, Arab, Iberian, Anglo-Arab, Trakhener, Hispano-Arab.
Work horses, including coach horses, were horses with extravagant gaits were the “bling” vehicle of the time. Depending on the coach these animals were pulling, you had postillions. And postillions invented “posting” to get of the backs of these big-moving horses. Those trots were never intended to be done sitting.
Then there were the “heavy breeds” such as Clyde, Belgian, Shire, etc. Those are the “cold blood” breeds and not the horses that made it into competition dressage.
When mechanization made the horse obsolete for transportation, breeders needed to find new markets for their product. This is when TB and Arab blood was introduced, and these horses were repurposed as “riding horses.” This is when you now have a big moving horse with more blood.
I was at the barn of a rejoneador, a mounted bull fighter. I saw him schooling his horses and asked why he didn’t school “long and low.” He said if you do that you train the horse to get on its forehand and the horse cannot get out of its way…and thus mobility and agility are compromised. Not something you want when the rider’s life depends on his horse’s ability to move.
George Wahl was with the Circus Knie and before that with the SRS and before that in the German cavalry. Granat was known to be a very difficult horse and it was Wahl who found the key to his brain.
Thank you for stating the truth about many of the modern WB breeds,
Fancy, high stepping coach horses were never meant to be mounts for people who ride their horses.
The ONLY high stepping horse breed I would consider riding much is the American Saddlebred horse, and the saddle seat riders POST the trot and these riders tend to post high off of the saddle.
Thank you for your acknowledgement. In the past, I have been severely pilloried for these statements.
And disclaimer…I used to own a 17’3" / 1700lb Hanoverian, of “old bloodlines”…Goldfisch/Duellant. I competed him to 3rd level, but it was obvious that the horse was having difficulty with collection. That horse was sold to buy a 4 yr old Lusitano stallion. It was like going from a Peterbuilt to a Formula 1 race car.
The Hano was a cross-country machine. Point him at a jump, bridge your reins and hang on. We were the pair that babysat everyone’s first outing or went out with nervous horses who needed company.
The Lusitano could read minds. He could spin on a dime and give you change. He taught me sensitivity and self-awareness. I miss him dearly.
