From COTH. Brings up several interesting issues. https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/dont-wait-on-the-fei-creative-solutions-for-a-safer-sport-star-in-eventing-risk-management-seminar
Very interesting. Glad they are finally talking out loud about rider responsibility,
I am not a fan of a 5* short. No way, too watered down for me.
OâConnors quote
OâConnor reminded national federations there was nothing to stop them applying tougher qualifications under national rules if they felt FEI rules did not go far enough. Germanyâs delegate Philine Ganders-Meyer said that organizers with âstrongâ courses should be allowed to impose additional qualification criteria.
I find this odd, if they know stronger qualifications improve safety, itâs kind of strange to say - well the National body can do that if they want to but FEI wont. Maybe I misread that.
Also interesting comments about the YouTuber. I have actually seen her videos and there is not much substance to them, more like flashing words and fluff with a side of ponies. They canât actually think Youtubers like that are influencing eventers lol Those videos are geared toward beginners and those newer to riding.
I listened to basically the whole seminar. It was very interesting. There were a few presenters that stood out for me. Laurent Bousquet spoke quite candidly about the crashes in France this year - including clearing up misinformation about Thibault Fournierâs fall. The Australian presentation on the findings of coroner report were very interesting too.
I think the most important presentation was by Dave Vos who studied every single ride of every jump at Burghley and talked extensively about the physics of what leads to horse falls. Really made me think about a few trends I see now that I suspect contribute to horse falls.
I have to say I wasnât overly impressed by DOCâs leadership during seminar. Maybe he felt rushed to get through everything but I felt like he blew off some comments that he didnât agree with rather than actually discussing them.
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For those who couldnât listen in⊠Care to enlighten me on the bold?
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I think this is more a statement about Eventers not being media savvy or using social media/media in general to their benefit.
âThis Esmeâ partnered with the FEI to do some specific videos and on site work at FEI events, I believe Aachen? was one. Obviously the FEI is going to pick someone who has some sort of backing on social media (Esme, Olivia Towers, Matt Harnacke)
I canât think of many eventers that do. Elisa Wallace used to but not quite as much reach and consistency as she used to.
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Can you elaborate on the trend you see?
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Yep!
So Laurent Bousquet talked about the girl who died early on course (sorry donât recall her name). They had pictures of the jump and made the point it was a very basic cross country fence with a sloped corner at front to help prevent falls. He made the point that jump was 2nd on course and stabling area was within view. Horse came out of start box really strong, was going too fast and also likely distracted by horses in stabling area. Unfortunately, they got in too close to fence and horse couldnât lift knees in time to clear fence. 53 people had jumped that fence the previous day in same location with no issue.
For Thibaultâs fall, I had assumed it was jump related. However, what actually happened was between jump 5 and 6, the track came quite close to warmup area. Horse got distracted and tried to run back towards other horses. Thibault was not able to get him totally under control. Horse jumped a decorative hedge on edge of course that was on the top of quite a steep hill. They fell on the backside of jump over hedge down the hill.
Laurent Bousquet made the point that course designers need to be aware of stabling and warm up areas when placing jumps.
As far as Dave Vosâ talk, he talked a lot about the time that horses need to rock back to bring front legs up to jump. He also talked about the distance that horses need to take off from to clear a fence. He talked about the force required to bring down a frangible device on the front of fence vs. the back. One thing that really stood out to me was that if a horse comes down on the back part of a fence (letâs say an open oxer) and breaks frangible device, chances are that both horse and rider will be fine. He made the point that taking off too long and coming down early on back part of fence very rarely results in a serious injury for either horse or rider. However, if you get in too close and take out frangible device on front of jump, you are much more likely to be involved in a rotational fall. He also talked about the infamous white gates and why they didnât work as expected. Unfortunately, the audio didnât match the video at this point so I had to just listen to him talk without seeing his slides at correct time.
As far as the trends I see in eventing, these are my personal observations. In the last 10-15 years, there seems to be more people riding cross country in more severe bits and often with 2 reins or a more severe noseband setup. I also see a lot of pictures that I consider to be jumping upside down - horse has head in air with a stiff neck. I also think that due to course design, riders are forced out of a rhythm to slow down for certain sections of course and then are trying to speed up in other areas to make the time. I am a big believer in Andrew McLeanâs work and in his books, he talks about that flat upside down jump being a sign of horses that are going too fast without having proper brakes installed. He comments that a lot of current cross country riding is barely controlled bolting. My personal theory based on my observations is that people are going too fast and too flat with little ability to control their horses. When they approach a jump (especially if horse speeds up on approach), they are running past their distance and getting in too close. This results in not enough time and space to have knees clear fence - compounded even more when horse approaches on the forehand.
Obviously this is not true of every rider but I think it is a concern. I agree with FEI that riderâs and their teams (parents, coaches, etc) need to take more responsibility for themselves and their horses.
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@DunByMistake Thank you for taking the time to post a synopsis, I appreciate it. :yes: Very informative and falls in line with my own observations about the sport.
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Thank you! I agree with most of these things.
I also see at events here, people who are new toa level (T/P/I) and try to make the time. Their horses may not be strong, more of a push ride, but they run flat out at the fences trying to make time. These same riders fall often, or have terrible dressage/showjumping results.
I really think Equiratings is onto something. I wish they could get more investment from all the governing bodies. They talk a lot on their podcast how to see your median score from the season, and how to train appropriately and for what based on that. Super interesting stuff.
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I THINK the point (though I donât agree with it) is that in some of the countries with only a small Eventing population, if they imposed stricter qualifications, they would have no entries at the, say, 4* level. And they need the 4* for publicity purposes.
As I said, I donât agree, but that is what I was reading between the lines.
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Iâm a huge Equiratings fan and I agree that governing bodies should be embracing them with open arms. Not only for their ERQI measurements but also their attitude towards accountability and considering your performance from an objective measurement standpoint. Sam and Diarm did a presentation also during FEI eventing seminar and from comments in crowd, most people seemed to think it is something FEI should adopt. Some trainers brought up the fact that some students are in a rush to move up to next level and especially if your student is an adult, it can be impossible to stop them. However, if they had a red or yellow ERQI, then trainers could use some outside data and say, see you are not ready for this!
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wow, thats not any better lol
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While i find the ERQI interestingâŠI would fight Tooth and Nail against it being used as qualification. Sorry but I have a LOT of horses so have seen the numbers on multiple horses. (More than 10) that I know well. MOST make senseâŠbut there are a number that donât. Horses that are rock solid xc machines being flaggedâŠespecially if they were leased to a rider who made a habit of pulling up. Others that NO WAY would I move upâŠgreen for 2 levels higher than they are safe.
They are GUIDELINESâŠand in that capacity, goodâŠbut no way should they be a rule and replace common sense.
I absolutely agree on rider responsibilityâŠand the effect of peer pressure⊠but a clear problem is that you cannot legislate common sense and good judgement.
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@DunByMistake Those are interesting observations about jump placement. I can recall two incidents that correlate exactly with what you are talking about, but both on green horses so I chalked it up to that. The first was on a really nice, very game horse and a turn to a jump had us approach stadium, then turn so we were parallel, though quite a bit away, from the approach to stadium and the mare just got distracted watching the horses walk to stadium and popped the BN jump and almost lost me. Luckily, I got myself back in time. This was this mareâs first full event.
The second, I was on my mare, who can get distracted easily anyway, and this was her second or third show. Same venue as before but some directions were changed so we came out of the woods, heading straight for XC warm up and past it but close to the rope in order to line up to a âkeyholeâ type jump - now the ceiling was very high (20+ft) but the trees on either side had overgrown so the face was probably 6 ft or so, maybe 8ft. Well, she got distracted by warm up and the turn wasnât great so we had a refusal at that jump but did well when we refocused and trotted it - it was nowhere near BN max height, it was probably 2â3" and relatively flat ground so trotting was not a hardship.
AnywayâŠI chalked the issues up to green horse issues but if they are a concern for the higher levels, they are a concern. That particular venue was a âtake what you getâ kind of place - very friendly and inviting as far a staff and people, but the courses were interesting, running partly along the driveway where people and horses are milling, multiple levels at once so dressage may be done while green horn XC is going right next to the dressage rings, etc.
But, I have seen similar issues at other locations that hold recognized and higher level shows. I do think sometimes people rely way to heavily on âtrain at homeâ. I have seen it on these boards on occassion, ie: âWhat do you mean your horse is scared of baby carriages, they should get that training at home!â
So, I do agree, course designers could stand to think more from a horseâs point of view when setting as well as selecting jumps (when was it that a horse shaped jump was discussed and the ramifications of a horse thinking it is jumping another horse?)
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Just a clarification on ERQI ratings. Sam and Diarm emphasized this multiple times during seminar and on their podcast - retiring on course does not have negative effect on ERQI. It has a neutral effect. It was setup this way to give people the benefit of the doubt - if they felt horse wasnât performing well that day, they could pull up without âpenaltyâ.
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Kid leasing would have rider errors like circling in front of fences so they came up as refusals and she fell off a lot as well as pulled up. Basically trashed record but it wasnât because of the horse. But my point still standsâŠit is just a guideline as it should be. What is scarier to me is the two horses it gives green for two levels higher than would be safe. Theses horses have good records but are MAXED out at the level they are at.
Right, butâŠas far as Iâm concerned, that situation should have a poor ERQI. The horse, in his current training situation (aka with his current rider) presents an elevated risk when he leaves the start box. That may be the fault of the rider, and not the fault of the horse, but itâs still a statistical fact and is worth considering. If it is important to you that the horse maintains a green ERQI at higher levels so that he can immediately move back up after the lease ends, perhaps consider choosing a more experienced rider. I know if my horse had competed confidently through Prelim, and then spent a year at Novice getting pulled off jumps in the last second of his approach (so close to the fence it was marked as a 20, or in the middle of a combination), I would still want to take some time re-establishing him at the lower levels to be sure he still knew he was supposed to go between the flags. If he now second-guesses his take-off and I move him right back to Prelim, thatâs a dangerous situation - which is exactly what ERQI is trying to point out. If we arenât training them, we are untraining them and all that.
Now, you or one of your horses or all of your horses may be the exception to the above, but this isnât about any individual rider. It is about the fact that an individual riderâs decision to accept elevated personal risk actually affects us all - it increases insurance costs for organizers, it adds mental and emotional stress to course designers, it reduces broadcast and thus funding opportunities in the sport, etc etc. As much as it may be inconvenient to have you run your Prelim horse in a couple Novices after you get him back from a lease that might have been a poor fit, that trade-off to improve our safety rating as a sport is 100% worth it IMO.
I donât understand this comment. There is no statistical system on earth (ERQI, MER, double qualification, what have you) that can tell you when a horse has reached the highest level of competition they can safely achieve. That is and always will be something the rider is responsible for, and ideally for most riders in combination with a trainer. That the ERQI is green is basically saying âthe horse has been managed correctly thus far - please continue to do soâ. Part of that management is not entering him in levels where he should not be. If you do, and there is a problem, ERQI will quickly step in and turn amber, or red. The basic premise is that the ball is in the riderâs court, until they prove they canât handle the ball.
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Very true (and a great feature - saves people from being penalized if equipment breaks, horse throws a shoe, or the rider wants to exercise their better judgement, etc). But to be crystal clear, any jumping penalties incurred before retirement are still counted towards the ERQI. Anyone riding around with the old-school mentality of âretire after a 20 to save the recordâ wonât get around this system that way.
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Iâm not in the USA and my observation is based on reading COTH, Eventing Nation etc and watching online videos versus the real thing in the UK but when people come on this forum and ask how to begin eventing the general trend seems to be âpractise your dressageâ, âbuy a horse that can do dressageâ, âanyone can jump clear rounds, it is dressage that wins the competitionâ. That is very different to the UK where the focus is on a horse that can gallop because dressage is training and jumping technique can be improved.
My point is that basic cross country schooling, the skills necessary to read terrain, judge environmental conditions and keep the horse and self balanced and rythmical is not apparently emphasized. Learning to judge pace takes time. Learning to ride up and down hills in balance takes experience. Riding a cross country fence demands a different technique to jumping in an arena. Show jumping a fence and then galloping to make time is not good xc techniqe. Time is an essential ingredient in training both horse and rider and it takes time to learn xc technique.
As an example, a rider posted a headcam video of his xc run. It made me blanche. I asked, via comments, how he had jumped a coffin fence - upright, ditch, upright - largely because I couldnât believe my eyes. âThe horse was great! I kicked him on and he just flew over it!â That was a rider with a dangerous lack of knowledge.
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