Intermittent Cold Backed Horse

[StarPattern]

My mare used to lose her brain while being tacked up and would be exceptionally spooky and bronc-y while under saddle. Turns out that, while her saddle fit in the traditional sense, there was something about it that SHE didn’t like. I tried a different saddle on her and it was like night and day. She retained her brain through the entire session.

RE: animals faking injuries. Now, I’m not a vet or anything like that, so I can’t claim scientific knowledge on the subject, but I wonder if it’s possible for horses to learn a behavior to get out of work. For example, a horse that has been pinched by a cinch being tightened too quickly will continue to snake their heads and nip until they re-learn that tacking up doesn’t have to hurt. I don’t know if that can extend to faking a limp, though. That being said, I have a rescue dog that nearly lost her paw. She has contracted tendons and when she’s tired or has run around too much, she does limp. She also learned, as a street dog in Mexico, that she could play on sympathy. Big, brown puppy eyes and an exaggerated limp got her food. Now, I’m constantly amused by how she “plays” my friends. She’ll walk fine and soundly all day until she hears a bag of chips or something open, and then suddenly, her paw is the most painful thing ever. She limps and she cries and she carries on until one of two things happen – either she gets a treat or she gets told to stop begging. At that point, the limp magically disappears as she walks out of the area. It’s rather amusing. I imagine horses are capable of the same actions, but I don’t know if it would be considered “faking” an injury.

[shayaalliard]

Horses don’t lie.
I dealt with all sorts of “behavioural issues” in my witchy mare-
then, over time, I learned. I REALLY learned
Learned how to fit the saddle REALLY well- mare no longer bucks
Learned how to control my body on the ground- mare suddenly lunges respectfully
Learned how to LISTEN- mare no longer bites and kicks

I look back at old videos of “her issues”- and they were me. She was telling me nicely and I wasn’t hearing her- so she was SCREAMING at me. As my hearing got better, her “voice” got softer. She is amazing now.

[spaceagevalkyrie]

[QUOTE=StarPattern;8811791]
My mare used to lose her brain while being tacked up and would be exceptionally spooky and bronc-y while under saddle. Turns out that, while her saddle fit in the traditional sense, there was something about it that SHE didn’t like. I tried a different saddle on her and it was like night and day. She retained her brain through the entire session.

RE: animals faking injuries. Now, I’m not a vet or anything like that, so I can’t claim scientific knowledge on the subject, but I wonder if it’s possible for horses to learn a behavior to get out of work. For example, a horse that has been pinched by a cinch being tightened too quickly will continue to snake their heads and nip until they re-learn that tacking up doesn’t have to hurt. I don’t know if that can extend to faking a limp, though. That being said, I have a rescue dog that nearly lost her paw. She has contracted tendons and when she’s tired or has run around too much, she does limp. She also learned, as a street dog in Mexico, that she could play on sympathy. Big, brown puppy eyes and an exaggerated limp got her food. Now, I’m constantly amused by how she “plays” my friends. She’ll walk fine and soundly all day until she hears a bag of chips or something open, and then suddenly, her paw is the most painful thing ever. She limps and she cries and she carries on until one of two things happen – either she gets a treat or she gets told to stop begging. At that point, the limp magically disappears as she walks out of the area. It’s rather amusing. I imagine horses are capable of the same actions, but I don’t know if it would be considered “faking” an injury.[/QUOTE]

Haha along these lines, I did know an old lesson gelding who would act like the most pitiful ‘shoot me now’ half crippled animal in the world. Until you turned him out at which point he would take off rearing and bucking and playing like a baby :rolleyes:

[SuzieQNutter]

Dogs do have the ability to learn things. That is why you can have a guide dog for the blind. A dog can be taught that if the master asks them to cross a road when a car is coming the dog can be taught not to cross.

A horse (and a cat) have no traffic sense. They can not cross a road safely. It is just luck when they do.

A horse also does not reason. They will go back onto a float that has rolled as they can not work out that if they go on the float again it could roll again. The usual reason they won’t go back on a float is discomfort for things like hay and dust being blown around and getting in their eyes.

We can only train them because of their memory. It is easier to train that it is to retrain.

Whenever you interact with a horse you are training a horse. If you don’t know what you are doing you train the wrong things. It is harder to train the right things afterwards.

So this mare has been taught to buck in the round yard. Until she has been worked down enough to be in work and doesn’t actually want to buck in the round yard because that becomes work.

What we are seeing in this thread is someone who has not been taught or learnt the number one rule. That rule shows up in attitude and life of how EVERYTHING is looked at.

OP. Take this as gospel. Turn it around and upside down. Apply it to absolutely everything you do with a horse and what you have written here.

Yes I am shouting. It is the next thing for you to learn in your journey with this horse and every horse you interact from this point in time on. JMHO and I am just an idiot on the other side of the World offering free advice. So it is up to you whether you choose to take it. I hope you do.

I am telling you this because I care for you. I hope this helps you.

NUMBER ONE RULE: IT IS NEVER THE HORSES FAULT.

[Anonymoose]

A horse also does not reason. They will go back onto a float that has rolled as they can not work out that if they go on the float again it could roll again. The usual reason they won’t go back on a float is discomfort for things like hay and dust being blown around and getting in their eyes.

I don’t know what a float is, but IME and AFAIK a horse is much more likely to NOT go on one again if it rolled with him the first time. If it rolled the first time, the horse will expect it to roll again.

The sentence about hay and dust being blown around makes no sense to me. Why would hay be in their work area, and why would dust be around a float (whatever that is) any more than in the arena, the pasture, or anywhere else on the property?

ETA: OK, I think I remember somewhere that a “float” is a word for a horse trailer. Whatever, I repeat what I said earlier – if the float/trailer rolled with the horse the first time he would be more apt to expect it to again than to expect it not to.

But if it is a trailer, why would it roll? If it’s hitched properly to the tow vehicle and the brake is correctly on, why would it roll? I’ve never seen a trailer roll when a horse was being loaded/unloaded.

[Anonymoose]

[QUOTE=Happy_Appy;8809365]
This isn’t a consistent thing though. That’s where my confusion is. For 2 to 3 weeks she will act like a fool for a few seconds each direction and then she’s perfectly fine for me to hop on and go. After the 2 to 3 weeks I can pull her up, tack, and go. No silly business. It’s not a lameness issue, she has faked injury before, I’ve met many horses that do. They’re mostly lesson horses that I’ve encountered, but if you ask them to do more than they want, they limp, ride through it a minute or two and they’re fine. I worked with a horse for a long time that did this after he figured his old owner would get off when he did it. Sometimes it was at the beginning of the ride, but most times it was about half an hour in. Vet said there was absolutely nothing wrong with him.

Either way, I know it isn’t tack fit or bridle lameness. If it was, it wouldn’t be an intermittent issue. This is always a temporary problem with her.[/QUOTE]

This post just makes me so sad, for the horse and for her rider.

Such unnecessary pain and hardship for the horse, just because the person who is supposed to love and care for her thinks horses fake pain and “knows” it isn’t a saddle issue.

Lameness in any foot can have its source elsewhere, as someone else has posted here. Spine, hips, shoulders, neck … just because a foot exam shows nothing doesn’t mean there’s nothing wrong. Not only did a farrier teach me this, I know it from my own “foot” lameness issues, which are intermittent.

OP, have you checked the patterns of your mare’s issues to see if they are related to her heat cycle?

I’ve never heard of “bridle lameness” – what is that?

[Pocket_Pony]

OP, horses have no other way to speak to you than to use body language. Your horse is trying to tell you something. She is uncomfortable somewhere. Instead of blaming your horse for bad behavior or saying she is faking it (horses don’t lie - there is a real, physical reason for her reaction), why don’t you start by making a very specific list of everything you do with her every time you are with her. Keep track of time of day. How long you spend grooming. What order you do your grooming things in, how you saddled and bridled her, how long you waited before tightening up the cinch. What kind of ground work you did with her. How long you did ground work before getting on. What you did when you got on. And anything else you can think of. See if you can find a pattern to the situation.

First I would check for saddle fit, bit and bridle fit (have the teeth been done lately), feet (need to be shod, balance of foot, abscess or thrush, ???).

Really, though, I would check myself. What am I doing wrong? What am I not seeing? What could I do differently in terms of handling skills or riding skills such that I can HELP my horse through whatever issue it is.

You can either take this as an opportunity to up your game and improve your horsemanship and help your horse, or you can insist that she is lying and continue to have problems and let her down.

Again. The ONLY way a horse can communicate with you is body language. If you are not understanding the subtle message, their next choice is to scream.

[SuzieQNutter]

A float is a horse trailer. I am in Australia. They hitch to a large car and a ramp comes down at the back. The horses load forwards and back off to exit. They roll in car accidents.

Yes. Horses go back on the float after car accidents. It is taught in lectures in both pony club and the EFA. It happened to us. Two horses went straight back on the float once righted on the side of the road. They do so because they don’t reason. There are many studies on this. It is also the reason a showjumper will starve or die of thirst in a paddock that is lower than they jump in a ring. Or they can not work out to use a rake to get a bale of hay down off a wardrobe with a rake standing by to save their life. This does not mean that other horses do not jump fences or do not play with rakes. They do.

It is also why there is no point trying to punish a horse after the fact. Some people will try to say he kicked me so I will not feed him. The horse can not reason that he did not get fed because he kicked you an hour earlier or even 10 minutes earlier.

Whereas an octopus can work out how to get food out of a jar by unscrewing the lid, but does not remember it the next day and has to work it out again. Animals have different brains to us and to each other.

The hay and dust is from people putting haynets in the float for them to eat while being transported.

Australia is hot and the floats have air vents in them to let the air in. That air is coming in at up to 100 klms per hour and it then swirls around the horses, divider, etc.

It is recommended not to put hay in for them because of the bits of hay flying around to discomfort them and it can cause choke. Which would be an extreme nightmare thing to happen on a Highway and I would do everything in my power not to risk that, but a lot of people do it.

[SuzieQNutter]

A bridle lame horse is not lame in the paddock or on the lunge or usually on a free walk. Only when picked up to work.

One guess why!!!

This is usual with beginners who don’t know how trying to get a horse 'on the bit 'by pulling from in front. Or using gadgets or using severe bits or all 3 at once. It also has to do with bad hands and bad riding.

It has to do with the fact that a horse can not put his hoof down in front of his face so they change to an abnormal gait. They nod their head. They can be short on a front leg but there is no swelling or heat in the legs. It can be whatever that horse is trying to alleviate.

As Pocket Pony said they suffer in silence. They cannot whimper like a kitten or yelp like a puppy.

She is continually talking to you. If you don’t listen she will shout and then scream. This means buck, rear or bolt or anything else she can do to get you to listen.

If that doesn’t work then all of that may stop. They resign themselves that they have to work. The light will go put of their eyes and they will never work their heart out for you. You will not be riding a happy horse.