What is your interpretation of “getting a horse round?” Is it neck, body, back?
What is your interpretation? How do you understand body and back to be different?
My interpretation - or at least limited and possibly misled understanding - is round neck = back up. round neck is more than just “on the bit,” it’s deep and low. i remain extremely confused and disgruntled as there are posts on COTH disputing this fact and yet I continue to hear it in my everyday life?
am I missing something? what truly is “round?”
No, this is all mixed up.
The back is rounded when the belly is lifted and the hind legs are stepping up and under. The head can go where it wants. The horse can have an open poll or it can stretch to the bit, and still be lifting it’s body.
The back doesn’t really round that much in a horse compared to let’s say a cat. It’s more like the rib cage lifts and the back fills out which you can see when longing. Or ticking your horse’s belly to do a stretch.
Finished dressage work also wants the horse to give at the poll with the neck raised, so that the forehead is on or near the vertical and the poll is the highest point.
You will also see a lot of bad riding where the neck is broken at the 3rd vertebrae and the forehead is behind the vertical. The neck can be high or low. Much of the time when riders do this the body of the horse is not round. But the neck is very " round" just in terms of being totally curved.
Ignorant observers who only look at the head position will call this being round or being in a frame.
But really you need to look at what the hind legs are doing not at the neck.
In other words, the body can be “round” without the neck being round.
The neck can be round without the body being round.
Lifting the neck doesn’t necessarily lift the back.
Lots of horses plow around with overbent necks, hollow backs, and trailing hocks, at least at my barn.
I would suggest some background reading on biomechanics and anatomy as I can’t explain it all on my cellphone. Go get Deb Bennett’s book and read it about ten times.
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Thank you scribbler. Please, tell me - where does this incorrect notion that round neck means raised back come from? I have heard this idea so many times and I see it is incorrect but i am not understanding why so many people believe it and teach it?
On the same note, why would a horse benefit being “rounder?” ie… whatever “rounder” truly is. which, if taught right, isn’t just the neck, right? it’s something else entirely?
I posted the round in the neck question in a thread about Isabel Werth several months ago. I got the same answers that you have informed me with so thanks for the extra clarification. But still, from boots-on-the-ground trainers in my area there is this idea that “on the bit” is not enough, the horse must be ROUND (whatever that even means?!) ie lower lower lower! I’m not feeling when I need to go “lower,” because the contact I am having feels just right and yet i am not “round enough?”
Incredibly frustrating!!!
If the back sinks and the hocks trail the horse is upside down, the back and hocks are more likely to break down, and the stride is shortened.
If the horse lifts the abs, lifts the back, tracks up with the hind legs, he is moving correctly to carry a rider and has a foundation to start collection and after that, extension.
I actually think anyone who is doing a decent job schooling in any discipline knows this and aims for it.
As to why there are so many poor riders and trainers around, or people who just misunderstand what they hear and parrot that, I can’t answer that.
People are so often wrong because completely uninformed about all aspects of horse care including saddle fit, hoof care, and feeding, even when it’s incredibly easy to educate yourself these days.
I find it more rewarding to go self educate with quality sources and not spend too much time fretting over why other people are wrong.
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replied to add that I am using “leg to hand,” in which when I ask for “rounder” (eyeroll ><) I am also applying leg. This creates speed, so I am holding in front in order to attempt to recycle that energy back to the hind.
This style of riding is so different than what I am used to… I don’t know if I am on the right path or not. I just keep getting told “ROUNDER!” and I think i am “round enough” but i am still in front of the vertical a smidge. So I apply more leg, we get more forward, and i try and half halt to get the rhythm back…
My apologies for my lengthy descriptions. I am incredibly frustrated about this “round” concept considering what I consider “round” is apparently “not round?!” the moment i have connection with the bit/reins i am still “not round?”
This is the head position where I feel connection in the bridle, where I think we are “round” and have completed the task:
This is where my trainer wants her head:
dt-03-dressage-self-carriage.png
If the horse lifts the abs, lifts the back, tracks up with the hind legs, he is moving correctly to carry a rider and has a foundation to start collection and after that, extension.
I actually think anyone who is doing a decent job schooling in any discipline knows this and aims for it.
Completely agree, I know this is the ultimate goal. My feel is still developing. I’ve ridden a different style for a very long time. One may say they are similar but to me they are not. It’s a completely different understanding and interpretation of equine biomechanics for me.
we’re not hollow and trailing, but we’re not necessarily powering forward either. The rhythm is maintained without use of my leg aids 95% of the time. She will stay in one trot tempo unless I ask for more. My confusion is, her sweet spot is just in front of the vertical. Trainer wants me on or slghtly behind the vertical, but ideally on.
My limited, short-brained and newbie understanding is this takes time. It’s a process. So if we’re comfortable IFV, is it appropriate for us to insist OTV? or will OTV simply come in time?
Right now I would say we are schooling Training, to be conservative.
Without seeing video of you riding in a lesson I cannot say what is happening.
You started a thread a few weeks back complaining about your dressage lessons. Folks asked for video of you riding dressage but you never posted it.
If you want feedback on what’s happening in your lesson, post video of that.
Its possible you are misunderstanding your trainer. Or its possible you have a crap trainer. We can tell from video. We can’t tell from your description.
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Look at the back legs. What difference do you see between the two photos?
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Its possible you are misunderstanding your trainer. Or its possible you have a crap trainer. We can tell from video. We can’t tell from your description.
I’d like to think I am misunderstanding. It can happen. I might be starstruck and misguided by online hype that could very well be propaganda, leading me astray while the truth is sitting right in front of me and i am not acknowledging it because i simply don’t know it to be real.
If what I feel is round and what I am told is round are two completely different things, I’ll err on the side of caution and think it’s ME who needs to be educated better?
Look at the back legs. What difference do you see between the two photos?
I see more impulsion and submission in the second picture, but I see a swinging back, suppleness and smoothness in the first picture. both seem relaxed. #2 moreso, i’d imagine, but to my uneducated eye #1 is also acceptable.
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My vote is to follow your gut. I don’t like to see a horse behind the vertical.
With that said, I have a current young horse that, when left alone, prefers to trot with his nose almost on the ground as he can’t step thru.
When the “back is up” you feel like a horse that has gathered itself like when a horse is about to spook.
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Look at the left front hoof of the horse of the first picture. His trot is broken and he’s on the forehand. The angle of the picture makes it a little hard to be sure, but I’m suspicious of the lack of muscling in the quarters and the shape of the croup which looks pointy at the SI and flat from SI to dock. The muscling indicates a horse ridden front to back.
The focus on head position indicates that your trainer is not very good. You FEEL roundness in the ribs and back. You don’t watch the head. She’s teaching you to ride the head. You’re really going to regret this later. It’s a hard habit to break.
Going over tempo with leg aids can be balance problem. Balance problems are usually strength problems. Compressing a horse from front to back into a frame is not going to develop strength but it is going to break down the joints.
Think of all your dressage riding as physical therapy for the horse. Think about what muscles you’re trying to develop, what muscle/nerve memory you’re trying to create. What balance issue you’re trying to address (in the end, it’s all balance issues). The head position is an END PRODUCT.
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When applying more leg, you get speed. That means when you are applying more leg, you are allowing your body to allow speed. It is the rider’s body,not the reins which control speed and tempo. It is something teachable, it is something some riders understand instinctively, other struggle to learn. If we attempt to do it with the reins we stop the forehand, and drop them on it, leaving the back hollow, and the hind legs trailing. Find someone to teach you a proper half halt from the seat, or, to simply do transitions from the use of your seat and body.
Round comes from the horse’s abdominals contracting, his back lifts. To do this his hind end must engage, with the hocks lifting and pushing. Then the neck arches, and elevates.
Watch horses at play. They raise their necks, but they are pushing more upward and less forward with their hocks, while their back is raised.
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You still seem to be measuring “round” by the horse’s head position. Is your instructor really talking about that or just saying “more round”? If the latter, it may be you are not doing the things that others have mentioned to get your horse to relax and raise his back and step under and your instructor is trying to impress upon you the need to do that and not “set the head”.
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I hate the terms “round” and “frame” when discussing dressage. To me, round is a term to apply to a circle - it is a geometry term. Lower the neck, lift the withers - those are more useful comments. More energy from behind, keep the energy flowing forward. The goal is to get the horse using itself more athletically, which means engaging the abs, and generating more power from the hind quarters which come through to the front of the horse.
Ultimately, that power behind helps lift the front end of the horse - but that takes time and fitness, otherwise, more power behind results in the horse running itself down into the ground (think of a kid running down a hill, losing balance and control - what we want to slowly get to is the kid running UP the hill, but until the kid is fit enough, that won’t happen).
Focusing on just the head or just the neck is not enough - you really need to learn to focus on what is going on behind the saddle. Of course, human instinct is to focus on what we can SEE (aka the head), and human instinct is to try to make things HAPPEN with our most evolved of tools - our hands.
I agree, without video, it is hard to really comment on what is going on with your rides. Pictures are a moment in time. But - of the two pictures, while the first is pleasant and relaxed looking, it is really not doing anything to increase your horse’s athleticism. Horse isn’t tracking up, and is showing a downhill tendency - the front foot is hitting the ground before the hind foot as shown in the picture. The neck shows some muscle development in the top half, then it just disconnects.
In the 2nd picture, it is a different phase of the trot, but there is much more power evidenced in the way the horse is using itself. You can see the neck muscle is a solid line of engaged muscle, and you can see the wither is showing some lift, the horse’s abs show some muscle engagement. Of course, I would want to see the horse in a more uphill balance, but this is building the power, not yet there. So when we use our anology of the kid running up the hill - he is starting to go uphill, but he is leaning into the hill a bit to help with the effort. It is athletic development.
Not sure if that helps. If your trainer is simply telling you “rounder”, he/she is not helping you to understand your goal.
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I don’t think we can even judge from the pictures, because they’re not of the OP or her horse–when you click through to look at them, look at the web address. One is from a 2014 blog post, one is from a Dressage Today article. Without video of the OP’s actual horse, it’s hard to tell what’s going on, because it’s like a game of telephone.
Absolutely agree that we as humans get stuck on the head position, because it’s what we can see. Having to use feel to tell whether the whole horse is round is harder, particularly if you don’t know what “round” feels like to begin with. I know that for me, the first time I really got mine round and working through her back it was like a revelation, because I hadn’t felt it before. But I wasn’t just being told “rounder” to get me there–I was working on pushing the horse forward, stepping under herself, and carrying. Now, years later, I get told “rounder,” but unless you’re starting from a position of understanding, that’s a useless instruction.
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Yes it is…I had a trainer like that, my first Dressage trainer, I thought that was how it was supposed to be like. It has taken me years to overcome that programming.
Now I still hear “Don’t worry about the #$&$$#@ head, get her working”
Round to me now means I can feel her back come up, she becomes harder to sit, she feels ‘bigger’ Then half halt, add leg, hands forward and “See, what did she do?” “She relaxed into frame”
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I wondered when I saw the photos jsst night if they were really the same horse but it was late 
If they are not photos of the OP then this is a ridiculous conversation and OP is wasting our time.
I
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That’s the hardest.
Some trainers just aren’t good at explaining.
Some riders just aren’t good at understanding.
And both can have communication problems!
OP, ask your trainer for more clarification. Using different terms, expressions and examples.
What does your trainer means by round/rounder?
Just saying « rounder » without more explanation is, like JenEm said, useless.
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They are not from the OP.
I wouldn’t say the OP is wasting anyone’s time; but I agree that no one can say for sure what is going on.
OP, you posted pictures of what you think you are doing and what you think your trainer wants.
What you think might not be the reality.
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