Iron noseband stallion halter????

[naturalequus]

Here’s the Noavel if it is what you were looking for OP: http://www.hoofnail.com/headstalls.htm
Never knew it existed until I was introduced to it last week by a farrier who uses it on his tougher horses to quiet them. Seems like a pretty ‘strong’ halter though I could see its (limited) use with certain horses (particularly as you develop them to be better). One thing that concerns me is that if the horse tosses its head or such, it seems it will be automatically reprimanded, regardless of whether that is your intention or not.

As for the CA halter, ‘you don’t know what you don’t know until you know it’ - if you haven’t used it (I haven’t), I wouldn’t be so inclined to criticize it as just another expensive rope halter. I certainly notice a difference in response between different halters myself so wouldn’t be surprised if the CA halter also produced a different response than some of the other halters I’ve used.

Stoicfish, every horse’s head is different in size… hence different sized halters so the knots are placed appropriately for the most part Remember too those knots are not exerting any pressure when the horse simply stands quiet or even tosses its head, only when the horse actually leans into the knots.

[crosscreeksh]

Yes!! The Dressage Extension Mannering Caveson is exactly what I’m looking for!! This is not a rank horse…he leads all the time with a cotton rope to his nylon halter, but after getting aroused while teasing - we live cover - he is just too strong approaching the mare. DH is very strong, but 16.2+,1300 pounds of “focused” ISH stallion is a bit much. This morning we used a lip chain and he was a total gentleman. The Mannering Caveson style works well - gets their attention without tearing up skin. To accomplish training, you first must have the horse’s attention. This is the horse’s first season of breeding. Any device is only as severe as the person holding the shank! Thanks to everyone!

[NoDQhere]

Another “helpful” tool for a nice, but strong stallion is a fiberglass “baton” (not sure what to call it). You can get them at farm stores, some people call them sorting poles. They come in different lengths, the 2 to 3 foots ones work great. We have white ones and work all the youngsters with them. No, you don’t whop on them :lol:, but you could if you needed to. They are a very good visual aid to remind Mr. Studly (or any silly youngster) who is in charge. You can easily hold the pole between he and you and slightly in front of him. For whatever reason, they seem to think you “could” whack on them but we’ve honestly never needed more than a tap to get their attention.

I think the mannering caveson is a good idea. For one thing it is something you can use ONLY for breeding. That in itself helps the stallion understand breeding time and everything else time. We used a chiffney on a halter with a fuzzy noseband and then once the stallion understood his boundaries and his job we use just the fuzzy halter and a chain over the nose. He gets ready now at just having the halter put on :lol:.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=naturalequus;5642329]
Here’s the Noavel if it is what you were looking for OP: http://www.hoofnail.com/headstalls.htm
Never knew it existed until I was introduced to it last week by a farrier who uses it on his tougher horses to quiet them. Seems like a pretty ‘strong’ halter though I could see its (limited) use with certain horses (particularly as you develop them to be better). One thing that concerns me is that if the horse tosses its head or such, it seems it will be automatically reprimanded, regardless of whether that is your intention or not.

As for the CA halter, ‘you don’t know what you don’t know until you know it’ - if you haven’t used it (I haven’t), I wouldn’t be so inclined to criticize it as just another expensive rope halter. I certainly notice a difference in response between different halters myself so wouldn’t be surprised if the CA halter also produced a different response than some of the other halters I’ve used.

Stoicfish, every horse’s head is different in size… hence different sized halters so the knots are placed appropriately for the most part Remember too those knots are not exerting any pressure when the horse simply stands quiet or even tosses its head, only when the horse actually leans into the knots.[/QUOTE]

When the PP halter came out I took one from a friend and tied one of my own. They were identical. My point is that if you take the general measurements, you could be able to make your own. The accuracy of the knots to the horse is relative to the horses head shape, just not size so I am sure it is not down to the mm or it will not be affective. Not saying it isn’t a good product, am just saying trying to make you own is not impossible if you don’t want to order one.

[Jos]

[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;5642731]
gets their attention without tearing up skin[/QUOTE]

Do be aware that while it may not tear up the skin, there is significant potential for bruising and cartilage and even (in the worst case scenario) bone damage.

These are not toys that should be handled by the inexperienced any more than a nerve line or a lip chain is - and as with those items, in a crisis situation, over-use has potential for damage.

Good luck.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;5644159]
When the PP halter came out I took one from a friend and tied one of my own. They were identical. My point is that if you take the general measurements, you could be able to make your own. The accuracy of the knots to the horse is relative to the horses head shape, just not size so I am sure it is not down to the mm or it will not be affective. Not saying it isn’t a good product, am just saying trying to make you own is not impossible if you don’t want to order one.[/QUOTE]

Well not all of us are as talented as you, stoicfish (though yes, I realise rope halters are relatively ‘easy’ to make when you know how) On a related note, sometimes it is difficult to find the exact type of rope you want (ie, flexibility, feel, thickness, etc) - it’s just easier to buy. If someone can or has the will to make their own, by all means! That’s not the point here, we’re not debating buying vs. making your own (which will always be cheaper, probably), we’re discussing purchasing and the wide variety of different types out there My point specifically (and I mean this generally) was just to not be so quick to dismiss the CA halter; that the CA halter might just produce different results than some of the other halters we use, just as those halters produce different results than others… which is why we use the halters (and other tools) we do. You can make your own (sell them! lol) and the rest of us are free to purchase, and yes, different types of halters produce different results for many of us. Again, I have never used the CA halter so cannot say for myself, but several on this thread have attested to the effectiveness of the CA halter over other halters, so maybe there is something to it I think it’s unfair to simply dismiss the halter, even if it doesn’t work for you (you being general of course).

Even if the knots are not exact, I’ve never found a rope halter to be ineffective. Maybe it might be less effective if the knots are not placed exactly, but certainly not ineffective shrug. I don’t need those knots placed over more sensitive areas or areas with nerves for it to work - the knots themselves and the thinner rope ‘anywhere’ on the face (within reason, I mean within a general area) will distribute less pressure over that area than say a web halter, will do its intended job, and is the reason I defer to a rope halter (personally).

[crosscreeksh]

Having been in the breeding business for over 30 years - always live cover, we are very aware of the damage that can be done to a stallion - physical and mental - from mishandling. We have used an iron halter in the past on a stallion who had never been live covered until he was 8 years old and was very rude and bullish, as a lot of AI stallions seem to get. No manners required with a breeding mount!! Delicate application by the handler results in training as opposed to brute force or cruelty. A bruised nose is a lot less dangerous than an out of control stud.

[Jos]

[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;5644665]
…very rude and bullish, as a lot of AI stallions seem to get…[/QUOTE]

Not if they’ve been managed and handled correctly…

Having been in the breeding business for over 30 years - always live cover, we are very aware of the damage that can be done to a stallion - physical and mental - from mishandling. We have used an iron halter in the past…

That’s good, and in your case helpful. It is however worth remembering that in these public forums, not everyone has over 30 years experience and neophytes read these posts regularly, so one has to be cautious about presenting a piece of equipment as a perfect panacea for a particular situation (in this case a difficult stallion) without presenting a balance of information. That neophyte might read the above posts prior to mine, see the links presented to buy the equipment, and think “Ooh - that’s exactly what I need on Fred, because he can be a handful”. Buy it and stick it on Fred, use it inappropriately, and end up with bone damage to poor old Fred’s nose when all he did was want to go and smell some roses…

A public forum is valuable place to gain information, but a dangerous place if it’s wrongly presented…

[Equine_Reproduction]

@Jos;5644675

“Ooh - that’s exactly what I need on Fred, because he can be a handful”. Buy it and stick it on Fred, use it inappropriately, and end up with bone damage to poor old Fred’s nose when all he did was want to go and smell some roses…

Just for the record and because I don’t think Jos realizes it - he is NOT referring to A Fine Romance - aka “Fred” <ROTFL>. Sorry Gail! I just wanted to make that ABSOLUTELY clear

I will also offer one other piece of information with regards to this particular piece of equipment having watched it being used by someone who was VERY experienced with stallions, as well as someone who was experienced with stallions BUT not with this particular piece of equipment. It works. Yes. But, there is no in between with it. You are either walking along peacefully and in a well behaved manner, or you are REALLY cracking down on them with it. It just doesn’t have any middle ground or finesse. Think walking along with a stallion and a stud chain over the nose…stallion puffs up a little bit and you simply have to jiggle the stud chain a little bit to get him to refocus - you don’t get that option with this piece of equipment. It was not pleasant to watch with the gentleman that “was” experienced with it and with stallions and it was downright brutal to watch with the person that had it and wasn’t experience with it at all. Just sayin’…

[crosscreeksh]

Yes, this is a public forum, but consisting of many professional horsemen and breeders. I was not recommending this halter to solve someone ELSE’S issues…I was inquiring as to where to find the item for myself. And as a matter of fact, we DO use it a bit differently…we keep a shank to the horse’s regular, leather stable halter and place the iron halter over the top and my husband handles two separate leads. Like using a pelham bridle with double reins. We have NEVER “cracked down” on a horse with this device!! Our stallions are known for their manners and dispositions. This one just needs a little more control. As I said earlier…any device is only as severe as the person handling it!

[AdAblurr02]

Jackie, we have two of the iron bosals (what we have called them for the past 30 years) - one was made for our now 21 year old AQHA stud who was a total terror in his Terrible Twos stage; the second for the big Irish stud whose first trainer did him no favors in letting him pull away. We have another shaped and ready to weld up in a size between. Ours are covered with 6 ounce leather, really not much padding but enough to temper the “hard steel” feel of it. They are just the ticket for some scenarios, as you (the OP?) already know!.

The beauty of this tool is that you can allow the recalcitrant (or just plain bullish) horse to correct THEMSELVES with it - go ahead, toss your head and flip around and act wild… BONK, “oops not too wonderful. Guess I will remain attentive and NOT try to jerk handler’s arm from its socket.”

I would not use one for breeding - too easy to bonk himself as he goes up on the phantom (or mare, in which case he would also gouge her with the bottom ring), but as a “respect me or else” tool it certainly adds a layer of equalizer to the mix.

One point for those who don’t know, the fit is critical. This is a tool which MUST be fitted to the horse it’s used on, and that fit is nearly exactly the same as a traditional rawhide braided bosal. If you don’t understand how a rawhide bosal works, one should certainly not try a steel bosal. It’s too capable of being too harsh in the wrong hands. The one Dressage Extensions lists looks to be properly shaped and proportioned - but not leather covered, and only in ONE size.

[camohn]

on the whole I am not the biggest fan of some of the Monty Roberts stuff…but his halter is an exception. I used it as the breeding halter for our last stallion and the current one had it dug out for a week or so when he went through a phase of being a jerk. It has the dual nosebands…one with the regular noseband and one with the sliding rope band. Just in case you look for an alternate option…
http://www.montyroberts.com/montys-store/equipment/dually-halter-medium/

[DeeThbd]

Although I am not a breeder and don’t handle stallions, one way to make lip chains / stud chains a bit safer is to wrap them in Vetrap - leave a few links uncovered at each end so you still have enough flex to fasten it properly. Still provides pressure, without grabbing skin.
Dee