Warm blood Societies? Question came up and I have limited knowledge in this area. Thx!
An Arab saddlebred cross? I doubt it.
Well, I have been to inspections and seen Arabs accepted but NSH is a bit different. On what do you base your opinion?
No. Saddlebreds were once used by the Dutch a bit - as are the Dutch harness horses, but no more. No warmblood registry recognizes Saddlebreds. Most will inspect Arabians and some are accepted - many times to a “lower” studbook, but can be bred to an approved stallion and get a registered foal. The Saddlebred is just not what any of them want or need to incorporate in their registries. At one time the American warmblood registries were taking alot of unknowns or “off breeds” - you could check them. Good luck!
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Well… the American Warmblood Society might.
I have known some really great National Show horses. The hard part is that these are F1 crosses (not usually the genetic combination wanted) and they are a combination of two breeds who have not been selected for some of the proportions and biomechanics that Sporthorse breeders want. So you will probably have a horse that is true-breeding for those traits, even if you can’t know which things the sire’s and dam’s ancestors will bring to that horse and, presumably, to your foal.
But again, boy-howdy if you get a good NSH you are in luck! The ones I have known have been sound and stoic, forward but not at all stupid, kind and superbly trainable.
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Yes, there are many excellent horses and breeds that aren’t accepted into the legitimate warmblood registries. In large part I expect it’s because these registries developed in Northern Europe, and never had to take into account North American breeds like Saddlebreds or Quarter Horses in their foundation stock, or indeed even the Iberian breeds.
In general these days, a warmblood from a legitimate registry is registered on a combination of pedigree and assessment. Some “outside” horses get approved for breeding, most likely to be thoroughbreds these days. Arabs have historically contributed to several of the warmblood lineages, but I would be surprised if there are currently full blood Arabs in a contemporary Warmblood breeding program. Half Arab just isn’t what folks want in the current WB phenotype.
The WB lineages certainly incorporated a variety of horses over the past several centuries, including Northern European harness horses, English Thoroughbreds, and local populations of quality horses. There is Arabian and Iberian blood in this process, certainly.
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Now there are also American and Canadian registries that incorporate the name “warm blood” or “sport horse,” and are not affiliated with the European registries. They have looser requirements than the European registries. I don’t know how far that stretches, though.
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AWS does as they are a performance registry, so as long as the horse shows potential for, or is performing as, a sporthorse, they can be registered.
There are a few high quality Arab mares that have been approved for breeding by warm blood registries, including US Hanoverian. @stripes has an incredible approved mare that now has multiple Hanoverian/half Arab offspring. I believe I saw that one was recently a Hanoverian futurity winner at this year’s inspection.
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As a whole, the ASB isn’t a sporthorse type. For sure, some are, which is why some excellent stallions were trialed by the Dutch, but not surprising, they didn’t contribute in a desired way, so that was a bust.
The QH is way too diverse in phenotype to be reliable breeding stock for this
There are at least a few Baroque breed stallions who are WB-approved, some or all with the German WB registry
I would be surprised if there are currently full blood Arabs in a contemporary Warmblood breeding program. Half Arab just isn’t what folks want in the current WB phenotype.
Quite a few Arabian stallions are approved:
https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/sport-horse-breeding/9905896-warmblood-approved-arabian-stallions. Many of them are full or largely Crabbett-bred and are powerhouses with sturdy, solid build and athleticism for days. Several are Polish, also quite substantial. They produce very good phenotypes :yes:
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I’ve seen a number of nice Arabian mares approved, some with very nice, typey wb sired foals at foot. The Saddlebred is just not the structure that the warmblood breeders are seeking. Many of them are really sway backed for one thing.
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Ah, good to know!
I have been away from sport horse breeding from some years now so I don’t know if this still holds true, but Oldenburg (the Verband’s North American division Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society) used to accept mares of “off-breeds” into its lowest mare book IF they were of good quality and exhibited sport horse type. Foals from these mares could receive registration papers if they were sired by stallions approved for breeding by Oldenburg or another recognized warmblood registry (and some warmblood registries are not considered recognized by Oldenburg). The registry’s thoughts were that the majority of these mares might present only one foal for registration, 50% of which could be expected to be colts that would be gelded, and very, very few of the fillies ever came back for mare inspection or presented their own foals for registration (and it took four generations of approved breeding before mares could work their way up into the Main Mare Book). So the impact to the breeding base from these mares was pretty negligible.
In general, they accepted mares into their highest book if they held papers from a recognized WB registry, or JC or AHA. Papers from any other registry put the mare in the lower mare books. Over the many years I organized inspections for them, I saw QH mares, a Morgan mare, a few ASB mares, and several draft/TB mares inspected and put into the lowest mare book. I also saw a few mares the inspectors declined to accept (draft mares and an unregistered mare who the owner said was a Saddlebred/Paint/Thoroughbred/??? cross). Those were in the early years–after a while, we stopped seeing “off-breeds” at the inspections and saw only warmbloods, Thoroughbreds, and the occasional Arabian.
Regarding the Saddlebred stallions approved by KWPN - there were only two of them (their names escape me at the moment), and they were accepted for harness horse breeding ONLY (not for riding horse breeding). They both lost their breeding approval after a few years because they weren’t producing up to expectations (or hopes).
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I’m fairly certain an NSH mare could have a foal that would be registered with RPSI.
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Oh, and probably ISR/Oldenburg NA.
RPSI was absorbed into Westfalen-NA several years ago so whatever the RPSI rules were; they are no longer relevant.
Saddlebred is not one of the listed eligible pedigree elements for OLD/NA-ISR, but it is not clear if the rules for the pre-mare book for ISR would allow an NSH so it might be worth checking with them. (OLD-NA/ISR mare book eligibility overview here: http://isroldenburg.org/index.php?pid=mares_eligibility )
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A NSH foal could get a Horse Identification Document with RPSI/Wesfalen. Better than nothing. You can actually register ANY horse with them with HID even if you don’t have breeding. You an get them microchipped
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I believe that is true for at least several of the Euro registries, but a HID is not sufficient for “eligible for breeding approval” which seems to be the point of the OP’s question.
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FWIW I know a number of saddlebred Arab warmblood crosses have been registered with RPSI and ISR-Old NA. This was the entire breeding program and the saint sando breeder.
yes, things have changed since 2017 for RPSI horses.
For ISR oldenburg, the mare needs to have 75% approved bloodlines or pedigree, which includes arabs.
This is incorrect. The KWPN Erkend Harness Type breeding direction allows for 50% American Saddlebred blood (also 50% Hackney Horse blood). I own and breed KWPN and ASB, stand a KWPN stallion and breed full Dutch and Dutch x ASB crosses. Our homebred yearling filly, by our own KWPN harness type stallion and out of one of our ASB mares, was the highest-scoring yearling in the FEH classes this year. Our 3-year-old KWPN gelding was the second-highest scoring 3-year-old in the country this year. Our 2-year-old ASB filly also scored over 80%…not bad for something that’s “not a sporthorse type” :rolleyes: The Dutch harness types and Saddlebreds can do the job.
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I saw pictures of said filly on FB… what a nice filly… I’m part of the ASB Sport Horse FB group which is where I think I saw it.
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