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Is anyone out there crossing their German mares with Dutch stallions?

Sport Horse Breeding
#21

I think one thing that is a bit different is that you are thinking of going to a recognized dressage sire that has the kneesier ™ action. What has been more typical imo is for a little bit of jumping blood to be introduced with Dutch and Holsteiner sires.

If you want the kneesier action, IMO you are safer to introduce it via bloodlines that also jump well, but that’s just some unsupported personal spec. It is true in general that kneesier action often goes hand in hand with a less elastic connection and more “headset” way of going for a horse. That’s not an “oh my stars - avoid that at all costs” observation, just one to keep in mind when making your decisions. Every single plus has a minus with it - pretty head, lovely, too teacup-y - mouth doesn’t hold double bridle well; refined and sensitive, nifty but sensitive in mind blowing surroundings - not necessarily great; etc. There’s nothing good that doesn’t have something you need to take into account with it. So it’s just nice to make sure you have a lot of elasticity and rideability coming in when you are adding in more knee and a difficult temperament can make a horse that isn’t as predisposed to a soft elastic connection a bit more difficult to get it from, since unlike some other things, you can’t “kick through” to create an elastic connection.

You could still extend your German lines some by maybe picking up some “b” blood (Bennidetto is a good looking boy - don’t know how his other lines would mesh with your mares).

A guy who looks like he will be adding some knee (and has the Holsteiner bloodlines to back that up) who I’ve had my eye on is Chequille. He’s already approved in multiple registries which migh help your situation. It’s early yet to say, but it looks as if he might also bring some elasticity and rideability and back up jumping talent to the table to go with the action.

But you might want to go ahead and contact some of the stations that have Dutch stallions either by frozen (or fresh, if any) that you are interested in and see what they can tell you. You might be able to get more first hand info trying to follow up on, say, what Idocus might have produced with some german line mares than overseas info, but maybe not.

Good luck - it’s been an interesting point and discussion

#22

[QUOTE=mbp;5502246]

You could still extend your German lines some by maybe picking up some “b” blood (Bennidetto is a good looking boy - don’t know how his other lines would mesh with your mares).

A guy who looks like he will be adding some knee (and has the Holsteiner bloodlines to back that up) who I’ve had my eye on is Chequille. He’s already approved in multiple registries which migh help your situation. It’s early yet to say, but it looks as if he might also bring some elasticity and rideability and back up jumping talent to the table to go with the action. [/QUOTE]

We think along the same lines. I have 2010 Belissimo M filly from my Freestyle/Wolkenstein II mare who I am retaining for a future broodmare and I am breeding my Weltmeyer/Rubinstein I mare to Belissimo M this year (also hoping for a keeper filly). That said, I don’t think Belissimo M really passes on a lot of knee. Great canter, elasticity, super mind and pretty head, but I wouldn’t look to him to reliably add longer legs or more knee. I really like Benidetto (actually I had a dream the other night that I was on the phone with Linda booking a mare to him), but I am in Canada and I don’t want to deal with the CEM hassle.
I have also been looking at C-line holsteiner blood as an option to add more knee. I really like Connnaiseur (Con Amore/Donnerhall) and will strongly consider him in 2012 when he’s available fresh.

And don’t worry Kyla, I am still breeding Diotima to Sir Donnerhall this year. Semen is paid for, there is no turning back. I am thinking of “going Dutch” in 2012.

#23

I have a Jazz x Contender x Bold Indian x Lord filly. In my humble opinion, she’s a product of a very good cross of Dutch and Holsteiner lines. Good luck!!!

#24

I’ve done it. Twice. :slight_smile:

I bred my slightly old-fashioned D-line Hano mare to Prestige VDL. I wanted him to bring her up a bit in front, add some sproing to the knees, and lift to the canter. Prestige certainly did those things. The resulting filly has a super duper fancy trot, a spectacular canter, and massive walk. But the cross did nothing to bring refinement - she’s enormously tall (I’m not a fan of really elephantine horses) with a lot of bone.

I liked the cross enough to do it again (she’s due next spring). But I think next time I’ll use something like Belissimo M, Furstenball, or Rascalino.

Have fun making your choice - this is one of the best bits of breeding, all that ummming and ahhhing. Fun!

#25

Crossing Hanoverian and Dutch bloodlines is what I do - not just to do it, but that happened to be the best cross for the mares.

#26

Thanks for mentioning Connnaiseur. I wasn’t familiar with him and had to go look up what I could find. What a nice young stallion! Lucky Canada (and NA).

#27

Personally, I believe that the best bloodlines are the best bloodlines, regardless of what registry they stem from. And to me, it looks like the Dutch have the same philosophy. They’ve incorporated plenty of Holstein blood, as well as Trakehner (when it wasn’t necessarily considered “hip”) and Rhinelander blood as well.

I’m not sure what registries he’s approved with, but Quaterback comes from a Brandenburg mareline.

Personally, I don’t think “registry” when choosing stallions… :wink:

#28

My “Armani” is from Trevelyan Farms Hanoverian mare “Venezia” (Rousseau is his sire). Venezia has lovely supple babies. I told Lesley NOT to inform me if this years foal is a colt, I don’t really need another bebe.:lol: She is bred to Ampere.

#29

This!

#30

Anyone else use Prestige?

#31

KWPN seems to be bringing in some D line with DeNiro. Maybe some R.

Are the Hanos and GOV using Jazz much?

#32

[QUOTE=Oakstable;5681553]
KWPN seems to be bringing in some D line with DeNiro. Maybe some R.

Are the Hanos and GOV using Jazz much?[/QUOTE]

The paardenfokken site shows - what, 1600 or more Jazz offspring (I lost count of the pages). Almost all are listed as KWPN, with a scant handful as OLD or WEST. Not sure I saw any listed as HAN.

#33

Oakstable - You have a pm. I have been lucky enough to get to know Prestige VDL personally as he lives only a few minutes down the road. He is a lovely lovely stallion. Sadly he has been sold to Australia. A real loss for New Zealand breeders. He is of course still available frozen.

In the 4 years he has been in NZ I have used him 5 times over TB and Hano mares. The results have been fabulous.

#34

I heard many years ago that Dutch and German breeds did not cross well.

The old line was that Dutch horses moved more like a cart horse.

Seems like there is a Holsteiner/Dutch movement and a Hanoverian/Oldenburg and other German registry movement.

Trakehners have traditionally been a little flatter, long and low.

#35

Oakstable - the Dutch have been using Holsteiner and Trakehner bloodlines for a long, long time… Hanoverians and Oldenburgs seem to be used much more sparingly.

#36

Siegi,
I know they have been using Trak and Holsteiner for a long time. It’s a classical Dutch “cocktail” for dressage. And perhaps for jumping with Marco Polo, an Anglo-Trakehner.

But it seems somewhat rare to see Hanoverian and Oldenburg lines in a Dutch stallion. And Oldenburg, which is more experimental than Hanoverian Verband, does not seem to be rushing to bring Jazz into their studbook.

So why is the KWPN using Hanoverian and Oldenburg more sparingly? DeNiro is showing up recently. Bretton Wood is one example and there are others.

#37

In a fairly simplified explanation to your question, Oakstable, I know the KWPN covet the quick hind leg, which is often lacking in the Hanoverian and Oldenburg lines. They do, however, appreciate some of the other features, including the fronts on horses as Sir Donnerhall. It is a matter of trying to breed for the features they want without sacrificing on the ones they already have. This often takes at least 2-3 generations of a particular cross to get the desired results. Some lines just nick better than others, too.

#38

Thanks, Martha.

Which German lines have you used with your Dutch mares?

#39

I have used Sir Donnerhall, Sir Gregory, and Soprano for dressage. I really like Sir Donnerhall with his extreme elasticity and beautiful front, and he’s showing prepotency for passing on these attributes. With Sir Gregory, I’m still getting the beautiful front (as I hoped, those genes stayed true with my mare) and an even better hindquarters IMO. My mare is strong behind with good length of croup. I also hear that Don Gregory, SG’s grandsire, passes on increased rideability, which is always a plus. The other stallion I have used is Soprano (on two half-sisters). Sandro Hit is a risk crossing with the Dutch lines, I have heard, but Soprano has offspring competing successfully in sport and the Contender (Holsteiner) influence from his damline cannot be denied. Contender, the sire of Contango has proven to be a good cross with the KWPN. In fact, one of my fillies reminds me much more of Contango in her way of going than she does Soprano - so those genes are strong.

For jumpers, I stayed with lines I know cross well with the Dutch lines - Balou du Rouet and his son Banderas. Again, Balou is very prepotent and so far, so is Banderas, for type, from what I have seen. Both these horses have Contender in the damline and Banderas also has Grannus (HAN) and Beach Boy (KWPN), both highly respected sires.

My mares are all very powerful behind with a good work ethic.
If they don’t have a foal by their side, they are back under saddle for the summer to stay in top condition. All my KWPN mares are Wanroij descendents. My foundation mare, Never Say Never is a Wanroij daughter crossed with an Approved th. mare (when the KWPN still inspected them). The other mares are daughters by Ferro, Idocus, and and grandaughter out of the Idocus mare by Soprano. The last is only turning two and I am not in a hurry to breed her.

#40

It is well known that Florestan crosses very well with Weltmeyer mares as well as mares with Holsteiner blood. He is a VERY prepotent stallion and is highly reliable in passing on an excellent mind, very high rideability and of course correct legs and a beautiful head. Certainly one to try if you have such a mare

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