My little mareband is mix of good, solid German dressage lines, W, D, R and F. I think they are a good foundation to build on, but I would like to breed them to stallions that will add the longer legs and slightly higher knee action that is more popular today. Sandro Hit and sons seem like the obvious choice, but I have concerns about the walk and the jury still seems to be as to whether SH will produce Grand Prix horses. I find myself more and more considering some of the Dutch stallions, particularly Jazz and sons, as he certainly has shown that he passes on that spectacular front end as well as serious Grand Prix potential. I am aware that he can throw very sensitive offspring as well. However, I am not finding a lot of examples of Dutch stallions crossed on W, R and F lines mares. Has anyone tried doing this and what were the results? I have seen a few Jazz/Donnerhall crosses that worked well. Bretton Woods(Johnson/De Niro) is a nice example. Also, what would the registration possibilities be for such a foal? I have two Hano mares that are also approved for Oldenburg, a Canadian Warmblood mare that is approved MMB Oldenburg.
I’m breeding my Sandro Hit mare to my Orpheus stallion.
Hihi, most dutch stallions carry German genes.
I bred my MMB GOV Stedinger mare who is out a GOV mare by Rosier to Jazz and got a fabulous colt in 2010. Check both out on my website www.twinwillows.net under “horses for sale”. He has a fabulous easy going personality with FEI movement. He recieved a Premium at his inspection with wonderful comments from the inspectors(see his video San Jaco TWF) I have another dose of Jazz that I plan to use in the future. I also like Johnson and Bretton Woods. If you find a Dutch stallion that would compliment your mare I say go for it. Look on the GOV site they list the stallions in here and in Europe that are approved.
Have you gotten the wonderful book “The Making of the Modern Warmblood From Gotthard to Gribaldi” by Chris Hector
If I were thinking like you are I would want to re read on the intentions and plans of the great breeders that are included in the book. You are trying to do with your mares what the whole warmblood world is trying to do right now. How to make a Totilas without loosing what brought you this far. The book is great at looking at how others work at the same problems. PatO
There’s lots Hanoverian and GOV registered offspring by Rousseau. Celle stands a lovely Hanoverian approved son of his, out of a Weltmeyer mare by the name of Furst Rousseau.
http://landgestuetcelle.de/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=2&idcat=16&idart=1142
I’ve just bought a Jazz x Flemmingh filly. Her dam shares 3/4 of her bloodlines with Krack C and my filly shares 3/4 of her bloodlines with Johnson. She’s rather special. Question is should I put her to Rousseau to get a foal that shares 3/4 of their bloodlines with Blue Hors Zack? :lol:
But why is she relevant to this thread? Because although Jazz and Flemmingh are both KWPN stallions Flemmingh was actually a Holsteiner by birth. He just happened to be bought by a Dutchman as a foal and graded into the Dutch studbook. So Dutch x German works very well indeed. 
To be honest I don’t think there’s much of a difference between the studbooks any more. Any stallion who makes a name for himself will be accepted by most of the other studbooks so their breeders can use him.
TWFarm, how did you register your Jazz/Stedinger foal. GOV or Dutch?
[QUOTE=stolensilver;5500902]
To be honest I don’t think there’s much of a difference between the studbooks any more. .[/QUOTE]
A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but now I’m not so sure. I’ve spend a lot of time lately on Clipmyhorse watching the stallions shows and licensings, and I am starting to notice a difference in type between Dutch, Oldenburg and Hanoverian horses. The Dutch horses seems to have a much more extreme knee action and often time are built extremely uphill, almost to the point of looking like a German Shepherd. The influence of Jazz is really obvious on these horses. In contrast, the Hanoverian horses, seem quite a bit less flamboyant, but often seem quieter, more rideable. Maybe not so “pretty” and long legged, but powerful. The Oldenburgs are somewhere in between, very elastic, often long-legged and dark colored, the walk is sometimes lacking (here we see the SH influence). These are just my general observations, obvious there are lots of exceptions, and sometimes you will see a Hanoverians with Dutch lines, or vice versa (Fuerst Roussea is a good example). But you don’t see a lot of Jazz x Weltmeyers, or Ferro x Florestans out there. I guess that’'s my main questions. Do you think that a stallion like Jazz would cross well on a D,W,R mare base that is a bit old fashioned in type? It seems like a good idea to me, but I would feel more comfortable trying this sort of cross if I could see examples of similar crosses.
Forte,
Mine are all with the GOV.
Have a look at this website. Emmy is a Dutch breeder that has been successful with her Dutch broodmares as well as some very nice Oldenburg broodmares crossed back on Dutch stallions.
http://www.dejeudressage.com/content/22nm0a4hjc4@248/de-jeu-dressage-breeding.html
I think if you pose this question to the Dutch breeders they could give you a better idea of what German warmbloods do not work well with Dutch horses.
I have an Oldenburg registered Johnson filly out of of Argentinus/Goldstern mare ( dam line of Stedinger) that is a very nice cross, but a cross I would not have come up with.
Agree there is a difference between what the Dutch, Oldenburg and Hanoverian breeders strive for, even if the blood lines are “intermingled”. For me stallions like Wynton, Voice and Bretton Woods are more interesting (to me as a breeder of Oldenburg’s) because I can relate to their pedigrees better than a straight bred Dutch horse. Breeding is an educated gamble, so better to go with what you know and are more familiar with.
Just for the sake of discussion. The traits that are being selected for by the different registries are some what trend based and are a result of the collective tastes of the breeders. But most of those traits can be found in all the other registries. I would think it would be best to figure out what you want to add to your mares and go from there. Instead of thinking of distinct lines between the registries, think of the stereotypes as trait examples that are made popular by the different groups.
If you need up-hill or more power or …choose the stallion based on that.
The crosses that you suggested are not done as often, may only be that way because of registry support or following trends. I see so many horses with the same combination of pedigrees over and over again. But the top competing horses tend to have pedigrees all over the place.
If you look at the breeding of the top 5 dressage stallions, you find a mishmash of registries in their pedigree’s. If anything I would say some of the most successful horses have been well thought out “crosses”. I think it takes more finesse if you are not using a formula or nick.
1 JAZZ
2 DONNERHALL
3 ROHDIAMANT
4 MICHELLINO
5 DE NIRO
[QUOTE=Forte;5501012]
But you don’t see a lot of Jazz x Weltmeyers, or Ferro x Florestans out there. I guess that’'s my main questions. Do you think that a stallion like Jazz would cross well on a D,W,R mare base that is a bit old fashioned in type? It seems like a good idea to me, but I would feel more comfortable trying this sort of cross if I could see examples of similar crosses.[/QUOTE]
Ummmm, this is going to come with my “I’m a GP rider/trainer hat on” but please (re)consider who would be able to ride a Jazz x Weltmeyer before breeding that particular cross. 
:no: Jazz might ‘modernize’ the type but the mind could very well be too difficult for anything but the most talented of riders who are willing to take a gamble. (and yes I have a Weltmeyer who is extemely talented and if he was a she you could not pay me enough money to breed ‘her’ to a Jazz relative. I love him for all the Weltmeyer-ness but there is a reason that there are so many D/R crosses w/ W out competing - the temperament is a wee bit better & more cooperative/rider friendly - so all that flash & power can be used for good not evil! :winkgrin:)
IMHO Ferro x Florestan would be a recipe for a very(!) heavy/boderline coarse horse if the heavier genes on both sides of the pedigree were to be expressed at the same time in one horse. Ferro (as far as I have been able to research) is not prepotent for lengthening the front legs. Ditto for Florestan. You would need a mareline that is prepotent for throwing very long legs and light type.
Sometimes trying to do a bloodline combination that no one else has can totally backfire. Then again - nothing ventured, nothing gained. But Jazz x Weltmeyer…shudder I would think that if that cross was a ‘good’ idea then there would be boatloads of them in Europe already as neither stallion is young.
My best advice - talk to some other FEI riders & trainers - see what they think of those type of combinations. There is nothing quite like the experience of moving a horse up through the levels to give you an idea of what to ‘fix’ in the next generation. Their opinion and input is invaluable - especially if they’ve ridden a few close relatives of any of the stallions you are considering if you are trying to breed rideable horses.
Hi Tasker,
I just threw Jazz/Weltmeyer and Ferro/Florestan out there as a random, off the top of my head combination of Dutch and German lines you don’t often see crossed. I probably wouldn’t try Jazz/Weltmeyer for exactly the same temperament reasons you mentioned. Specifically, I was thinking of Jazz or a Jazz son on a Donnerschlag/Matrose mare who has a great mind and a great hind end, but could use some more knee.
I have a Rousseau x Sandro Hit x Donnerhall filly and a Florencio x Jazz, fwiw.
I love both Rousseau and Jazz but you need the right mare.
I’m waiting on my Dutch mare by COCKTAIL
To have a foal by a B/G line Hanoverian. And the world is very excited to see this cross. I do agree with Tasker (partially) on the fact that most people ride a horse that is too much for them. Not so much on those crosses she mentioned are too hot or temperamental. Most of those type are created more by trainers than by genetics. The terrific part of those great Dutch horses (Cocktail, Jazz, Ferro) & those great Germanbloods is that when you watch those horses go they really truly look like each next step or movement the horse takes gives you the look that they’re about to explode. Mediocre horses are bred all over. Achieving a breeding goal with that talented explosive movement is a great thing. Kudos for this OP setting a standard for themselves.
Judy Yancey had a Jazz colt last month out of her Oldenburg mare by Dream of Glory / Rubinstein I.
She bred the same mare a few years ago to the Jazz son Wynton - result of that breeding is now a 2 y/o stallion prospect in Australia.
I am pretty sure I also remember her breeding to Ampere, but can’t remember which mare it was.
A friend of mine is breeding a couple of German Oldenburg mares to Totilas (one mare is by Wolkentanz II, the other is that mare’s daughter by Sandro Hit).
I also know of an Oldenburg mare by Sure Hit that is being bred to Ampere.
And I know of a Hanoverian mare by Weltmeyer that was bred to Ferro a few years back.
So yes, there are some folks doing it here and there.
One thing to think about - a very experienced breeder friend of mine who has traveled fairly extensively in Germany, Holland, and Denmark told me that there is some feeling amongst many breeders there that the Dutch are very, very good at breeding in fancy action, with flashy, free front legs and lots of power and activity behind, but the toplines on these horses are often very rigid and unyielding. The big name professional riders in Holland don’t mind, because they can sit anything, but the riders that start these horses aren’t wild about them, and few of them make up to be good amateur mounts. The Germans and Danes, OTOH, seem to do a better job at breeding in elastic, swinging toplines.
As somebody else mentioned… warmblood breeding hasn’t been limited to choices within one registry for a long time. There is plenty of information available from all European registries regarding what stallions improve (with reliability factors given) and breeders all over the world have taken advantage of that.
The Dutch are probably on the forefront of going outside their registry because their biggest concern is breeding the best possible horse. They also have lots of built-in checks and balances that will only allow the best “products” of such matings to proceed as breeding animals.
With that said, to discount Jazz as a sire because his offspring are “unrideable or crazy” is a very short-sighted view in my opinion. Look at the numbers and then tell me that there is another stallion that comes close to Jazz’ production of high level performance horses… (and that means that people are riding them last time I checked.:))
And I have to laugh when I read that a “knowledgable breeder” says that the Dutch horses have great movement but are “rigid and unyielding” in the back! Can you say jealous?? :lol:
The short answer is yes, by all means look at stallions outside of your registry and see what they can add to your mares.
Good luck!
Hey Forte - I actually dreamed of riding a Jazz x Weltmeyer last night… 
:lol: Very exciting stuff and it made me giggle enough to wake up out of a sound sleep.
And to clarify - I am not saying people are breeding ‘unrideable’ horses. Nor am I saying Jazz makes crazy offspring.
All I am suggesting is that a direct J x W might be a professionals ride. :winkgrin: And do some research with people who are riding at the top levels - they know what they’d like to change on the horses they’re sitting on - so tap into that bit of knowledge! And check out the marelines of what crosses DO work well.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
And I have to laugh when I read that a “knowledgable breeder” says that the Dutch horses have great movement but are “rigid and unyielding” in the back! Can you say jealous??
Re-read my post. The comments about Dutch horses came from Dutch, German, and Danish breeders in Europe. Yes, apparently even some DUTCH breeders agree with that assessment. Jealousy has nothing to do with it.
I thought about it this year also because I wanted a way to add better front end mechanics that many of the Dutch horses seem to display ( if I could have used S line I would have, but mare in question would not be good match mentally). I was pretty set on Prestige VDL based on his offspring report and on video’s of him. Apparently he throws great temperaments as well. I would have just registered the foal KWPN. I ended up choosing Romanov instead but may still try a Dutch boy in the future as they are really breeding some amazing dressage horses.
With that said, to discount Jazz as a sire because his offspring are “unrideable or crazy” is a very short-sighted view in my opinion. Look at the numbers and then tell me that there is another stallion that comes close to Jazz’ production of high level performance horses… (and that means that people are riding them last time I checked
Depends what you are breeding for though! No stallion will fit all goals and all mares no matter how good of a sire he is. If you have a mare that doesn’t have SUPER angles behind or a mare that is a bit spicy then you are simply being intelligent in picking another stallion. Why would you aim to produce a nut job with bad hind legs? For the right mare, yes, any stallion can be the right option. But I believe you have to A) know exactly what you want to produce B) know what your mare consistantly produces and C) pick the RIGHT stallion. I am not into “dumbing down” our horses because many people here can’t ride well, but at the same time, you can’t say the horses have high rideability because top professionals in Europe can ride them. If you have a three year old that is uber hot and not easy for a pro to ride you may have a difficult time marketing it HERE . Especially if you end up with an average mover.
And Sara, for what it’s worth, I still love Sir Donnerhall for your mare (though I love Bretton Woods too).
