Is Dressage Declining?

[Willy_Von_Whompers]

Seeing tons of decline in shows (esp dressage) in my part of Canada. A lot of which is due to our economy in general, hydro for instance is insanely expensive here in Ontario. So that trickles down to everyone in one way or another as an added cost.

Plus in dressage, a lot of the “grass roots” folks are sick to death of EC who nickle and dime and grub every cent they can from us. And the benefits are minimal…you get to show…whoopppeee dooo. They still target their clinics, and opportunities to the top RICH few. A lot of stables are offering their own showing series or clubbing together with other stables to offer some shows, and it seems to suit folks just fine. As long as they get to take Dobbin to a party and get the chance of a pretty ribbon, why the hell not?

I just think a lot of small stables and private stables like me are staying home, doing their own thing and have dropped off the national radar. Still having fun, it’s not costing you a fortune and you don’t resent paying stupid money to an organizing sport body who has demonstrated over and over they will take your $$ but never give you a second thought after that.

If you are a horse lover I think you find a way to stay in the sport but at a certain point you just can’t justify all the showing fees so you find other ways to have fun and play.

I also do notice that people place far more emphasis on having “well rounded” children these days (no not referring to their shape, no matter how appropriate that comment may be), but they want them to do a bit of everything. A few of my trainer friends have noted that parents and kids expect to come to their riding lesson, have the horse tacked up and ready to go, hop on and ride…it’s a piece of sports equipment, no more no less. They don’t see any value in grooming the horse, tacking it up and learning anything about horsemanship…they wanna RIDE and then go home. Done. Finito. Tomorrow is dance and Weds is gymnastics. That’s hurting the horse biz - maybe not short term, but long term, we aren’t creating horsemen.

[2Below]

I see, in general, a decrease in the “all-around” horseman, to one that specializes. Years ago, most everyone did a little of everything, dressage, eventing, hunters, trail, chasing a cow etc. Now all the big barns in the area are specialized. A cutting barn, a dressage barn, a hunter/jumper barn, etc. Our local GMO has grown quite a bit over the years. Although most members are mainly into dressage, there’s hunter jumpers and eventers also. We are in a pretty rural, very far north Midwest area, but host 3 recognized dressage shows (all 2 shows in one weekend) and 2 schooling shows with hunter jumper/western dressage and a couple gaited dressage classes. Around here land, cost of living and things like hay are still “cheap” compared to other parts of the world, so it has not become as cost prohibitive as other areas. I’ve been a member of this GMO for nearly 30 years and have not only seen the membership grow, but the quality of the horses and riding has increased exponentially. We have access to trainers we never did back in the day, the world seems a bit more accessible and this particular GMO is incredibly supportive of it’s members which has given us opportunities I never thought would happen years ago.

[mvp]

@atlatl

Yes, AQHA has a novice division which I’m ok with. However that won’t address the perceived “unfairness” of people having nicer horses or access to and resources that support full training.

FWIW, I’m not trying to make sure everyone is spending the same amount of money. Rather, I think the résumé of a given horse or a given rider would be enough of a sorting criterion so as to create small eddies of fairness where like could compete with like.

[mvp]

Do you guys think that the increased quality in horses and in riding correlates pretty tightly with sport becoming beyond the reach of the middle class?

[cuatx55]

@mvp

Do you guys think that the increased quality in horses and in riding correlates pretty tightly with sport becoming beyond the reach of the middle class?

I think there has always been tiers in dressage. Imports are not exactly new, or dressage being a wealthy sport. I see many more breeds today than before, and more working class people. It’s actually better in many ways.

[atlatl]

@mvp

FWIW, I’m not trying to make sure everyone is spending the same amount of money. Rather, I think the résumé of a given horse or a given rider would be enough of a sorting criterion so as to create small eddies of fairness where like could compete with like.

Like I said, I’m totally cool with there being a novice division. The CA Dressage Society’s Regional Adult Amateur Championship (CDS RAAC) has a novice division, however the criteria for being a novice is that you haven’t gone to the Regional Championship / CDS Annual Show so it’s not exactly based on resume.

Last time I checked, the AQHA novice criteria was based on points accumulated, however, if you didn’t show for something like 5 years, you could regain novice status. Sort of a born-again virgin approach :eek:

[MysticOakRanch]

@mvp

Do you guys think that the increased quality in horses and in riding correlates pretty tightly with sport becoming beyond the reach of the middle class?

I kind of discussed that in my prior post - and yes, I think it makes competition (at rated shows) more and more discouraging if you don’t have the fancy horse in full training. When I first started riding dressage (in the 90s), I had a $2k Morgan horse and I hauled out for a lesson about once weekly. And we were competitive, even at State Championships when I went, and we were high point more then once over the years at various shows. In California! That doesn’t happen anymore. Now the people on the $5k horse taking once lesson weekly are at the schooling shows, or showing Western Dressage.

Someone I know just bought a “bargain” horse, a 4 year old for $20k. And of course, the horse has to be in full training so she is able to ride it. A “bargain” that costs as much as a new car. Full training that is a house payment. Let that sink in for a bit… That isn’t possible for many working class, middle class people.

It wasn’t long ago that a trainer wrote an article that suggested taking out a LOAN to buy a nice enough horse to compete on. And I know people who are doing that.

I don’t think dressage will die out, but I do think it is contracting - I think the bottom layer will be squeezed out, what I call the grass roots riders. And those riders are also the volunteer base and membership base for our discipline. I know membership numbers are down in California - I suspect USDF is seeing the same drop in membership.

[Equestrian1992]

I find this really interesting, I actually just switched to riding dressage and taking lessons at a dressage/eventing barn. I rode hunt seat my whole life and always thought of dressage as the ‘rich’ person sport. I was really nervous to switch because I thought I would be really judge and made fun of by other dressage riders. SO there is that stigma, that dressage is for snotty, elite rider. Not true my trainer is amazing and so nice.
Also, I follow a dressage horse for sale Facebook page, and the horses on that page are insane. No normal, modest person can afford one it blows my mind. And sometimes I see posts looking for a horse for a 12 year old goal, budget 100k. WTF. That is certainly not normal, and it does exclude modest people like me. Dressage lessons cost a heck of a lot more than hunt seat or western (I know, I have taken many hunt seat and some western pleasure lessons), and so yeah, I really think price does affect it. A lot. Training facilities are usually higher end, trainers expect more money to be dumped in. I get it, it takes time, effort and money put in to get a good dressage horse. But it still could be a little cheaper in my opinion. I got REALLY lucky and found a good trainer and a fair place to board and train. And I think that is only because I am in Iowa, where you can’t charge 100 dollars an hour. Most people here just want to ride their cow ponies around the corn fields

[Willy_Von_Whompers]

I see better quality horses but I don’t see better quality riders for the most part. The better quality horses are kept in full training - ridden by a pro daily - IF they are allowed to be shown by their owner, the pro is very careful that the owner doesn’t get chance to do too much damage. On…for the warm up (heavily supervised and maybe Mr Pro long reins the hell out of the horse as a warm up…to ensure Ms Owner has a chance of a “round” horse for the first half of the test at least…until she lets the reins get long and horsey drops on his forehand,but still sort of hops thru the rest of the test…) and after the test, then back to the pro for a quick tune up. Get that sucker on his hind end again.

It doesn’t co-relate from what I’ve seen that the super expensive horse is ridden well by its owner. It’s ridden well by its full time coach. period. Good business model for the coach. Short term. Hope Ms Ammy will buy a string of horses to fund the barn.

it is what it is. I’m in it for the love of the horse, love of riding and I have my own place so I don’t need to see this crap. I used to avidly go all over to see dressage shows, but now I’d rather download a video of someone I know is going to be good. Bad riding seeps into you if you watch too much of it, that’s my theory, so I try not to watch any of it.

[myhorsefaith]

Yep, what the last couple of posts have indicated regarding the cost to participate. I love riding, I love developing horses and progressing, but no, I do not want to spend that much on a horse and keep it in full training. Yes the horses are gorgeous and yes I’d love to ride and own one one day, but not with those price tags, it just takes away from the experience I’m looking for right now, which a lower cost, more DIY.

I have 2 half arabs, and I’m going to be doing Arabian Sport Horse shows this year with one of them, and maybe next year the other one will participate. I take lessons anywhere from once every couple months to twice monthly. The shows and surrounding costs are still close to the same $, but the horse flesh was cheaper to obtain and overall it feels a bit more down to earth and accessible than the open recognized shows. Much more my speed and feels like a more level playing field. Though, I suspect that with the injection of warmbloods into the half-arab world, that will also be changing soon, it already seems to have begun.

If that goes haywire too then yes I will definitely step down and be happy with schooling shows.

[digihorse]

Sigh… one thing that comes across again and again in these threads. The “old” goal of a dressage show was to get an outside opinion on the progress of your TRAINING. Scoring first for a pretty ribbon was secondary. Then comes USDF with the whole medal fiasco. Does nothing except promote their bottom line. Because as has already been hashed through… not hard to buy a horse to buy your medals. Has nothing to do with training. People get beat out at a show by a higher dollar fancier horse and quit… because they can’t get the pretty blue ribbon any more or those darned medals. They no longer care about the opinion on their TRAINING because showing has nothing to do with training… for many. Then they jump ship to some BS like Western “Dressage” so they can get pretty ribbons without having to ride a horse in a forward manner. What was it they were after in the first place? Probably something other than jumping. It probably wasn’t about putting in the hard work day after day required to get above training/first level. And yes… there are many in that category… no shame… until you blame your cheap horse as the reason you don’t win at shows. Not the horse’s problem. Always the human problem. Every horse can be trained to at least the medium levels. I didn’t say show… I said trained. Oh… right… that pesky problem about not making shows the be all and end all. Hmm…

Those who ride dressage for the love of the training and the detail and precision required… the never ending journey of learning… the pursuit of the perfect 10 meter circle, won’t stop. Doesn’t matter what scores… what medals… they/we/I will keep doing it… sometimes hearkening off to an expensive weekend at a show… just because (and then asking ourselves, THis was fun? NOT!) FOr those brief few strides when horse and rider are truly one… perfect, synchronized creature. Medals be hanged. Is dressage declining? Yes. For the showing crowd who have for one reason or another stopped fueling that fire. For those who ride for the joy and knowledge. No. It hasn’t. Nor will it.

[AltersAreUs]

@myhorsefaith

Y

I have 2 half arabs, and I’m going to be doing Arabian Sport Horse shows this year with one of them, and maybe next year the other one will participate. I take lessons anywhere from once every couple months to twice monthly. The shows and surrounding costs are still close to the same $, but the horse flesh was cheaper to obtain and overall it feels a bit more down to earth and accessible than the open recognized shows. Much more my speed and feels like a more level playing field. Though, I suspect that with the injection of warmbloods into the half-arab world, that will also be changing soon, it already seems to have begun.

If that goes haywire too then yes I will definitely step down and be happy with schooling shows.

Really? I looked at doing dressage and sport horse classes at the local Arab shows with my full blood multiple times and, sadly, the local recognized dressage shows were more affordable. Might be a regional thing but all the arab shows required either you have a stall or you pay a “trailer” fee that was almost the cost of a stall. For people like me who only show one day out of the weekend, the short horse shows were way overpriced compared to the recognized dressage shows. Shame too because my mare could rock a lot more than a dressage test.

[myhorsefaith]

It might be regional, but to be honest I’ve not taken my horse to a recognized show just for one day, so no experience there - don’t know if you can do it or not (though the most recent entry I filled out for sport horse you COULD haul in for the day and not stable). We’ve always gone with the trainer and its usually a 3-4 day affair (haul in day before, 2 days of showing). The Arab shows are going to be the same. And actually the first venue we’ll be showing at is cheaper for the weekend…but its also lesser quality than the venues I am used to at recognized shows. The following sport horse shows will be at the same venue as many other recognized shows and those stabling fees I expect to be the same. So in that regard, its a wash for me.

[MysticOakRanch]

@digihorse

Sigh… one thing that comes across again and again in these threads. The “old” goal of a dressage show was to get an outside opinion on the progress of your TRAINING. Scoring first for a pretty ribbon was secondary. Then comes USDF with the whole medal fiasco. .

Medals have been around for DECADES. When I first started showing dressage (in the 90s) getting your bronze medal was a huge deal to the AA rider. Now days, everyone buys a schoolmaster and the goal is silver and/or gold medals, bronze is no big deal. I don’t blame USDF’s medal programs - although I think they have become much less meaningful in more recent years…

[Manni01]

@digihorse

Sigh… one thing that comes across again and again in these threads. The “old” goal of a dressage show was to get an outside opinion on the progress of your TRAINING. Scoring first for a pretty ribbon was secondary. Then comes USDF with the whole medal fiasco. Does nothing except promote their bottom line. Because as has already been hashed through… not hard to buy a horse to buy your medals. Has nothing to do with training. People get beat out at a show by a higher dollar fancier horse and quit… because they can’t get the pretty blue ribbon any more or those darned medals. They no longer care about the opinion on their TRAINING because showing has nothing to do with training… for many. Then they jump ship to some BS like Western “Dressage” so they can get pretty ribbons without having to ride a horse in a forward manner. What was it they were after in the first place? Probably something other than jumping. It probably wasn’t about putting in the hard work day after day required to get above training/first level. And yes… there are many in that category… no shame… until you blame your cheap horse as the reason you don’t win at shows. Not the horse’s problem. Always the human problem. Every horse can be trained to at least the medium levels. I didn’t say show… I said trained. Oh… right… that pesky problem about not making shows the be all and end all. Hmm…

Those who ride dressage for the love of the training and the detail and precision required… the never ending journey of learning… the pursuit of the perfect 10 meter circle, won’t stop. Doesn’t matter what scores… what medals… they/we/I will keep doing it… sometimes hearkening off to an expensive weekend at a show… just because (and then asking ourselves, THis was fun? NOT!) FOr those brief few strides when horse and rider are truly one… perfect, synchronized creature. Medals be hanged. Is dressage declining? Yes. For the showing crowd who have for one reason or another stopped fueling that fire. For those who ride for the joy and knowledge. No. It hasn’t. Nor will it.

very interesting aspect. I many ways I agree, but its not the system causing that but the people. The rich ones buy their medals with expensive well trained horses (I have several people in my area who are doing it) and obviously the poor ones complain that their horses are not able to beat the fancy warmbloods. (although in my area I don’t really hear these complains) there are a lot of people showing TL to 2nd level with horses which are not fancy warmbloods and they do get nice scores if they ride good.

And I am not sure whether there are any people around here who just ride to perform the perfect circle… I haven’t met any…

I think all of this touches the idea of Dressage but nothing really catches it totally. Dressage is a long process of patiencence and transforming the horse into an athlete. In order to do that you need to have a lot of horsemanship to analyze what you are doing right now and whether you are on the right path. It can be very rewarding and also very frustrating. But i believe you need shows to check on your progress. No clinic will give you the same because the clinician always tries to please you because you pay. Only a judge is independent enough. Its a journey where you cannot trust too many people and you have to spend at least a lot of time to make progress. If somebody really wants this he can do it… I believe it is possible even if you are not super rich. You need to dream at night about your rides.

And now all these people will argue, they don’t have the right horses they don’t have enough money and they don’t have the time because their job is too demanding. yes they are probably right and its not for them. But its for sure not the system which keeps them from doing it.

[ladyj79]

Fun Fact: medals are predicated on scores, not ribbons.

[Belowthesalt]

Late to the party on this subject. Hm. Well, as an AA, my big goal was to get my bronze. After that, I figured I would try to go further - I certainly enjoy the process - but if I didn’t get beyond third level, I wouldn’t be upset. With my $5,500 horse (as a 2 year old, then after some training appraised at $20K). Not a WB. Good mover. On the hot side. OBVIOUSLY not a WB (Araloosa). Was showing 2nd/schooling 3rd - didn’t have those d&*(ed changes yet. Then he got hurt. And we’re rehabbing forever and ever. amen.

But qualifying scores? NONONONO. Either people in more dressage-isolated areas will NEVER be able to move up (either because of the time or expense involved in hunting down recognized shows and getting the scores) or will be forced to move up before ready. If the horses has average gaits, if you (generic you) don’t ride well enough, if you can’t afford a full-time trainer, so be it. No harm in showing TL forever and it fills the coffers of USDF, the local GMO and whomever puts on the shows, so that the shows will be there for all those other folks at the higher levels.

My horse is hot and tends to be tense at shows. I showed him Intro once or twice (wearing an eventer’s crash vest!) and it was “I hope I survive this.” He settled a bit and I showed training - but due to temperament, not lack of talent, we weren’t ready to move up quickly, despite consistent 63% to 70% scores at TL. Yeah, we eventually moved to 1st, then 2nd, but on our timetable, not based on scores.

Now, I have a friend who at one point had a horse on which she got her silver medal (She’s since sold him as a schoolmaster). I visit her every/other year - I’m in California, she’s on the East Coast. She took the horse from the sort of 3rd/4th level of dressage that is the Advanced eventing test to through 4th to PSG then Intermediare. She offered him to me so I could “get my bronze.” But I declined on the basis that (a) I really didn’t think I could learn to ride him well enough AND go to a show and get the scores in the time frame of a two week visit; and (b) I wanted to do it myself, on my horse. shrug It may never happen now, but yeah, it’s annoying to see people “buy” their wins on horses that are mostly ridden by the trainer - but I don’t always know if that’s the case, so I admire when I see a good ride and wonder when I see a not-very-good ride that gets a high score.

On the other hand, heck, I don’t know most of the people at the shows - I see my friends or trainers I know, I watch some rides, I show, I go home. I only do one-day, in-and-out, no stabling, etc. I’m usually the one gets noticed - for good or for bad - since I’m usually the only person on an Appy. (Was delighted to have company a couple of times when a gal showed up with a mule.) I haven’t shown now for going on 3 years. This thread is making me wonder if I will ever be able to afford to show again, and add to that the idea of qualifying scores. Ay-yi-yi… He is half-Arab, maybe - assuming soundness - Half-Arab sport horse is the way to go. Western dressage most certainly is NOT. He was much admired at an Arabian dressage show that also offered open classes. Since he is registered with USDF as an Appaloosa, I opted to show open, not half-Arabian, so the scores would count. I guess I could change that. ;0)

[x-halt-salute]

@digihorse

Those who ride dressage for the love of the training and the detail and precision required… the never ending journey of learning… the pursuit of the perfect 10 meter circle, won’t stop. Doesn’t matter what scores… what medals… they/we/I will keep doing it… sometimes hearkening off to an expensive weekend at a show… just because (and then asking ourselves, THis was fun? NOT!) FOr those brief few strides when horse and rider are truly one… perfect, synchronized creature. Medals be hanged. Is dressage declining? Yes. For the showing crowd who have for one reason or another stopped fueling that fire. For those who ride for the joy and knowledge. No. It hasn’t. Nor will it.

I think that showing is one part of what keeps the sport cohesive and organized. It’s all well and good to say that the purists who are doing dressage for the “right” reasons will keep doing it even if they stop showing. Most of us are involved in dressage because we enjoy the consistency of intellectual and physical challenges it provides. We would continue our pursuit of improvement as riders even if showing were to become impossible or unpleasant. But when people stop interacting with one another through organizations and activities like showing, what “improvement” means starts to diverge on a local and individual basis. If people who aren’t interested in external competition decide to stay home because they resent others “buying” their scores in the form of nice horses, and they scoff at alternative organized disciplines like Western Dressage as a means of chasing silly ribbons without putting in meaningful effort, then at what point does the individual pursuit of the singular sport of dressage devolve into a bunch of cloistered, often at-odds philosophies on training? I’d really hate to see “grass roots” dressage turn into a bastion for riders who keep to themselves and assume the worst of others, just as I hate to see this demographic accept a second class dressage experience in which the only accessible showing is TL and 1st level tests in front of L judges.

If people are content to enjoy the harmony of riding at home, I could not be happier for them. But IMO the most rewarding thing about dressage is not just having harmonious rides, but rather discovering new frontiers of harmoniousness and athleticism in riding. And getting input from a variety of sources who all have slightly different individual perspectives on a well-defined and cohesive (codified, in fact) set of goals is a particularly good way to keep pushing beyond one’s own horizon and finding out how much better it can get. Input from judges, trainers, and (to a lesser extent) clinicians has collectively recalibrated my own understanding of many dressage principles, and if I had a “to hell with showing” attitude I’d likely have spent more time/energy reinforcing some of the misapprehensions and poorly calibrated feel that impacted my dressage riding early on, instead of discovering better and better things. I’m sure we’ve all seen examples of riders whose growth as equestrians has been stunted by lack of access to diverse perspectives or unwillingness to consider them. I fear that a particularly counterproductive schism could be brewing in the antagonism between two dressage camps – the “pursuing the sport at the highest level they are able”/“buying the scores, competition-focused” and the “training-focused, self-motivated”/“sour grapes about their own circumstances and choices” camps. Showing is just one part of it.

I, for one, have never had a purpose-bred or fancy horse, but I’ve learned a lot from test scores and judges’ comments anyway, and I value showing for that reason. I’m not troubled by the increased quality of horses in American dressage, but I find it a little distressing when I hear about scores being calibrated off of the first ride, or about different judges interpreting the contribution of gaits/movement/brilliance to each movement score differently. It’s harder to use tests to “compete against oneself” or gauge progress when not just ribbons but also one’s own movement scores and comments might be influenced to some extent by the makeup of the class and, frankly, the inborn brilliance of the horses. I am troubled when another rider who presumably also cares about the sport tells me that those of us who ride ordinary horses at the mid-levels shouldn’t even bother showing, because at these levels it’s nearly impossible to earn respectable scores with a horse that costs less than my annual income (someone really said this to me!). I’m equally concerned when I see other less wealthy riders make ungenerous assumptions about the character or skill or work ethic of riders who have more resources to put toward their equestrian pursuits, or vilify the concept of competition. I am worried that very dedicated riders increasingly cannot access the knowledge and experience they need to learn and advance thanks to both financial and geographic barriers. I am sad that real estate development is making equestrianism harder and harder to access for people whose livelihoods and other non-equestrian priorities tie them to booming population centers. I have some concerns about where both “elite” dressage and “grass roots” dressage might head if we each let our resentment or disdain for the other half overshadow our common interest in achieving ever more knowledge and harmony and athleticism. Dressage is most certainly evolving, and whether that evolution will eventually be characterized as decline depends a bit on how the sport adapts to the social and economic realities of contemporary society and whether/how it responds to the concerns of the factions that are becoming more entrenched within it.

TL;DR: If dressage is in decline, “us vs. them” mentalities are part of the problem.

[digihorse]

@MysticOakRanch

Medals have been around for DECADES. When I first started showing dressage (in the 90s) getting your bronze medal was a huge deal to the AA rider. Now days, everyone buys a schoolmaster and the goal is silver and/or gold medals, bronze is no big deal. I don’t blame USDF’s medal programs - although I think they have become much less meaningful in more recent years…

HAHAHA… My first dressage show was May 1971. USDF was just a glimmer in a few eyes at the time. So for me… I remember the times before the all mighty USDF and the idea of medals came along. We just had the Jr Medal and Senior Medal at AHSA level

[digihorse]

@x-halt-salute I don’t disagree with you. I guess I came across more “anti-showing” than intended, which is not my stance. I am anti-ribbon hunting.

Showing is a good thing. It tests whether everything you think “works” at home, works in the real world. Often it doesn’t, and often putting those individual movements into a test where they come up fast is really hard. No one that puts in a competent test at any level should be ashamed or feel less that another regardless of score. What makes me green are those who do not put in the work necessary to gain that competence and then swap out to “something else” that doesn’t actually require the skills of “dressage” so they get a ribbon. And yes… that is my experience in watching this phenom.

I didn’t mention those who go into the Working Equitation side… because to me… that is taking the training and doing something with it. It still demonstrates that the horse is on the aids and obedient… and going forward. A type of Cavalry mount. The rider has to ride… not just sit on a poky pony. Would I do it? Don’t know. Its not exactly my cup of tea… but I can appreciate its fine points and the effort and training required.