Is Dressage Declining?

[js]

@Manni01

Sorry but I don’t agree with that. That is not what is Dressage about. To adjust to the stride of the horse. But sadly that’s what you see a lot :(. The idea is to work the horse over the back which will eventually make it great to sit… and I think that’s why you hear all this negativity about warmbloods

if if you buy a horse with small strides because it’s easier to sit then it’s probably (not always) working over his back and then something is missing which will result in a lower score. Maybe it will be different to sit when it is working over his back???

i just had this experience with my young horse. She was very comfortable to sit but I knew she was not working over her back :(. Lately I am able to work her over the back ( at least sometimes). And she feels totally different… I had a time when she was not comfortable to sit any more. Now the better she works over the back, the nicer she is to sit… it’s not about the horse. It’s about how you ride it…,

I wasn’t addressing what dressage is about or getting a horse into a dressage frame or correctly working.

It was a generalization based on the SIZE of the horse. QH generally (yes, there are plenty that are taller) being in the 15 h range v/s WB and TB’s being over 16h and up (and yes there are smaller 15 h horses out there), smaller size shorter stride. No a smaller stride isn’t always easier to sit it can get quite bouncy but the idea was to convey that big moving WB’s can be harder to ride for the novice and beginner, not only do you have to sit a big moving stride, you have to package the big moving horse into a frame for dressage.

I was not trying to address how correctly or incorrectly an individual horse may or may not be working. JUST a very basic generalization between the breeds on size.

[atlatl]

@js

I wasn’t addressing what dressage is about or getting a horse into a dressage frame or correctly working.

It was a generalization based on the SIZE of the horse. QH generally (yes, there are plenty that are taller) being in the 15 h range v/s WB and TB’s being over 16h and up (and yes there are smaller 15 h horses out there), smaller size shorter stride. No a smaller stride isn’t always easier to sit it can get quite bouncy but the idea was to convey that big moving WB’s can be harder to ride for the novice and beginner, not only do you have to sit a big moving stride, you have to package the big moving horse into a frame for dressage.

I was not trying to address how correctly or incorrectly an individual horse may or may not be working. JUST a very basic generalization between the breeds on size.

So many judges and trainers I know and respect emphatically speak against trying to “package” any horse into a “frame.” It is about getting them working over their back and accepting contact with the bit, not how they look.

Sorry if you meant something different, but this is a real pet peeve of mine.

In general, yes, it is much easier to ride an easy going, smaller horse of any breed with smooth/flat gaits. I think it’s more about gaits than size, think about death by trot on a pony for example.

[pluvinel]

@js

The big difference; is the ease of riding a QH with smaller size and stride is much easier for the novice and beginner when compared to a big WB or even a TB with long strides. It takes good equitation to be able to sit the big strides. Sadly, those smaller strides etc. are not what is wanted in the show ring so of course everyone strives to ride big moving horses. For the lower levels that may not be the best choice until such time as a true independent seat is developed.

Size has NOTHING to do with educating a horse to have manners.

What I have seen in “dressage” barns are rude I’ll-mannered animals with “trainers” who have little clue about installing fundamental rules for polite horse behavior.

The under-saddle work comes AFTER the horse knows how to be politely led in and out of the barn or past “scary” stuff without running over the handler.

And yes this applies to “Why is dressage declining?” because training under saddle starts with a horse that can be handled on the ground… if you have no obedience on the ground it does not get any easier…or safer, when you get on their backs.

[luvmydutch]

@pluvinel

Size has NOTHING to do with educating a horse to have manners.

What I have seen in “dressage” barns are rude I’ll-mannered animals with “trainers” who have little clue about installing fundamental rules for polite horse behavior.

The under-saddle work comes AFTER the horse knows how to be politely led in and out of the barn or past “scary” stuff without running over the handler.

And yes this applies to “Why is dressage declining?” because training under saddle starts with a horse that can be handled on the ground… if you have no obedience on the ground it does not get any easier…or safer, when you get on their backs.

It’s not just the groundwork, it’s the ridden safety that horses in dressage are lacking as well! I’m bringing along a young horse, who of course had issues with anxiety along the way. Gnashing the bit, spooking in one end of the arena, rushing, spooking at stuff in the arena, bucking…normal young horse stuff. The solutions these BNT trainers were giving me (and honestly…most of the advice i see given on here!) is so counter-productive to the nature of the horse. Strap the mouth shut, firmer contact, kick them into the scary corner, “get after” them in the scary corner, sit deeper pull harder on the reins when they are rushing…these responses always tell me the person has not a single clue about horsemanship. I’m not showing QH’s in showmanship these days, i left dressage to study horsemanship and how to create a safe, happy horse. I don’t particularly care about showing at this point, I just want to fill in the gaps in my education that have been left by every trainer I have used for 30 years. It’s incredible to me that people end up being BNT’s with a HUGE lack of knowledge of horsemanship.

I want my horse to be able to stand still when I get on until I ask him to move off EVERY time i get on, I want to be able to walk, trot and canter my horse on the buckle, with relaxation, in any location, I want my horse to understand lateral aid signals, I want my horse to learn that I am the leader and that he doesn’t need to be on the lookout for spooky spots, I want him to learn to focus on me and what I’m asking instead of the external environment…all on the buckle… before I even start thinking about a discipline. I want to instill basic coping skills, and basic riding skills, and teach the horse how to learn so that they are able mentally learn a discipline. This is what the dressage world is lacking…we need to create safe, mentally stable horses BEFORE we start asking for collection and higher movements. You don’t need to be riding a QH to have a horse you can ride safely…any horse can learn to cope with the demands of being handled and ridden by humans whether they are a WB or a QH or a welsh pony…but we, as riders, need to know how to teach them before we pile a career on them.

[js]

@pluvinel

Size has NOTHING to do with educating a horse to have manners.

What I have seen in “dressage” barns are rude I’ll-mannered animals with “trainers” who have little clue about installing fundamental rules for polite horse behavior.

The under-saddle work comes AFTER the horse knows how to be politely led in and out of the barn or past “scary” stuff without running over the handler.

And yes this applies to “Why is dressage declining?” because training under saddle starts with a horse that can be handled on the ground… if you have no obedience on the ground it does not get any easier…or safer, when you get on their backs.

My post was not discussing that! Please read for context before quoting.

I was talking about novice and beginner riders finding it easier to start out riding smaller horses just less of a huge stride and less big horse to get into a good working position.

[netg]

Horsemanship is NOT making a horse go in circles around you until it is worn out, or teaching it to be too afraid to misbehave when handling in hand, then breaking it down by the time it is 5. So many quarter horses are of sainted personalities where they put up with that treatment until they’re crippled.

I believe that manners including “never step into my space” should be taught to EVERY horse. I also know that even with the speed event, reining, cutting, etc., quarter horses who were most definitely high energy, I never knew a quarter horse who had as much trouble with stop and quiet as warmbloods I’ve been around. Certainly many warmbloods will be quiet, but there is a lack in their breeding, where a horse who simply can’t stand still is seen as ok - whereas to me an inability to stand should be seen as an overall temperament flaw. It doesn’t necessarily mean you shouldn’t breed, but seeing warmbloods standing in cross ties trying to behave and you can practically feel the energy rolling off them is not a training thing, it’s an energy/temperament thing. My TB is the highest energy horse I’ve ever known, but you get him in cross ties and most days he’s going to fall asleep - it’s really something about warmbloods I’ve seen, of a variety of breeding, where it’s NOT training or misbehavior, but an inability to be peaceful. That affects ability to get relaxation under saddle, too… The typical western trainer type of actions would not help, but likely would make this worse.

@atlatl

So many judges and trainers I know and respect emphatically speak against trying to “package” any horse into a “frame.” It is about getting them working over their back and accepting contact with the bit, not how they look.

Sorry if you meant something different, but this is a real pet peeve of mine.

In general, yes, it is much easier to ride an easy going, smaller horse of any breed with smooth/flat gaits. I think it’s more about gaits than size, think about death by trot on a pony for example.

Yes. I thought I was going to suffer death by pony trot from my mare the other day. She was in heat, so tight in her back. By the end of the ride we were back to normal, but death by 16.1 hh pony trot was very unpleasant…

[pluvinel]

@js

My post was not discussing that! Please read for context before quoting.

I was talking about novice and beginner riders finding it easier to start out riding smaller horses just less of a huge stride and less big horse to get into a good working position.

I do read for context…training is only in part about riding…and that riding starts with how the horse behaves on the ground.

The only time I have been water skiing at the end of a lead line was with a 12hh pony. That pony went where it wanted…not where the handler tried to take it. The pony had NO manners. Do you think this animal would be a safe ride? If a horse has no obedience to the handler on the ground, I have little hope that it would be obedient under saddle.

Riding a horse with big gaits starts with having the ability to control those big gaits. And that control is started on the ground. If not, then the person on that animals’ back starts with a great handicap…eg., lack of control.

[Mondo]

“…it’s really something about warmbloods I’ve seen, of a variety of breeding, where it’s NOT training or misbehavior, but an inability to be peaceful.” Really? I can’t think of any warmbloods (that’s kind of painting with a broad brush) I know, have owned, have trained, have worked with that behave that way. That would be a fairly large number of horses I’m using for my empirical evidence here.

[luvmydutch]

A horses being anxious or unable to stand still is a training issue

[js]

Getting back to the actual OP of is dressage declining, are the actual numbers of participants are declining (both for FEI level and for AA or JR levels) and/or if they are staying the same is there a turn over of people (especially AA’s) leaving replaced by new AA’s that stay around for a little while until they realize the costs and commitment and then they leave.

I know for many years some of us have complained about the disparity of opportunities for AA’s, especially on a more global (USA) aspect and not confined to the areas where it thrives regardless, like FL, East and West Coast areas. Do the majority stick around for the long haul or come and go? Kind of a revolving door of AA hopefuls only to move on down the road. I think many of us in those remote areas will always see a decline or at maybe stagnation, a few get interested but without access to lessons, shows, clinics eventually move on to something else.

[Manni01]

OMG there are so many things in this discussion which are personal opinions Yes they are probably a reason that dressage is declining but really its sad… Why can’t people just focus on the basics of dressage and enjoy their horse, whether its tall, small, big moving or whatever… Observing what other people will do or won’t do will not change your own situation anyhow. It might be smarter to invest all this activity in improving your own situation with your horse then to look at other people…

Take the horse you have, and make the very best out of the situation. And ride the horse in a way to keep it happy and healthy!!! I think thats Horsemanship and Dressage and everything regarding horses.

And I am writing this still because of my lesson yesterday . It was a great lesson and the instructor told me that I am riding better now then some months ago… Don’t know whether this is true, but fact is that I worked like crazy on some things. I got the Soloshot to really record all my training and show me my faults, I really focussed on getting my horses to work from behind, because I need this for 4 th level and I rediscovered the benefits of a circle (and of course the I.W. video ) and then today somebody who did not need to tell me that, told me that its fun to watch my progress…
So right now I believe more then ever in the right training and in consistency and patience… and you can do this with any horse!!!

[mvp]

I think a big part of it comes from the Decline in Boarding. And that comes from all of us collectively sucking the profit out of that business. At this point, you can’t find the kind of care that makes you feel good about investing lots in a horse or your riding.

I thought this was just me and my market. I own a horse who got very hurt due to piss-poor supervision (as well as some plain old bad luck thrown in). But reading here, I see others reporting similar worries about the boarding part of the equation. I, too, would own more than one horse if I weren’t afraid of how hard it would be to require two stalls rather than one should I ever need to leave the good barn where I am right now. Also, it sucks the joy out of owning a horse to not like and trust the 24/7 care your animal is getting.

I can’t afford full training, nor do I want it. I think I can ride well enough to improve my own horse, with lots of lessons while doing that. But I don’t think I’ll reach my competition or training goals if I hand over the majority of the rides to a pro and can’t be there every.single.time to watch and learn.

IMO, the answer is for we HOs to pay more for board, more for lessons, less for horses and less for showing.

[MissAriel]

@mvp

I think a big part of it comes from the Decline in Boarding. And that comes from all of us collectively sucking the profit out of that business. At this point, you can’t find the kind of care that makes you feel good about investing lots in a horse or your riding.

I thought this was just me and my market. I own a horse who got very hurt due to piss-poor supervision (as well as some plain old bad luck thrown in). But reading here, I see others reporting similar worries about the boarding part of the equation. I, too, would own more than one horse if I weren’t afraid of how hard it would be to require two stalls rather than one should I ever need to leave the good barn where I am right now. Also, it sucks the joy out of owning a horse to not like and trust the 24/7 care your animal is getting.

I can’t afford full training, nor do I want it. I think I can ride well enough to improve my own horse, with lots of lessons while doing that. But I don’t think I’ll reach my competition or training goals if I hand over the majority of the rides to a pro and can’t be there every.single.time to watch and learn.

IMO, the answer is for we HOs to pay more for board, more for lessons, less for horses and less for showing.

I think this is a great part of it, and often overlooked, at least where I am. It is nearly impossible to find access to good boarding outside of a pricey full training situation on one end or a smaller, private boarding situation with no training access on the other end. So I think a lot of people who are priced out of the full training option end up with little or no ongoing training and limited showing. Personally, coming to dressage late as I have, I would struggle mightily without regular training and if I couldn’t afford the training I would certainly drop out of showing and be one of those “came and went AAs”

[right_horse_at_the_right_time]

Cowgirl,

I do not ride a fancy warmblood, although I think my horse is pretty cute and has very good gaits-easily gets 7s which I think is fair. Sometimes higher, sometimes lower. When ridden properly, he can score 8s. I honestly feel like judging is changing somewhat, because around here, a mid behaving fancy horse, behind the vertical, etc., will not score higher than a good ride by me. Lower levels.

When I say ridden properly, I mean ridden to directives. Judges seem to appreciate a happy horse all considering.

we get well-known judges, too, these aren’t Santa Claus judges.

Luckily we have had so called off breed horses do very well.

[Edre]

@MissAriel

I think this is a great part of it, and often overlooked, at least where I am. It is nearly impossible to find access to good boarding outside of a pricey full training situation on one end or a smaller, private boarding situation with no training access on the other end. So I think a lot of people who are priced out of the full training option end up with little or no ongoing training and limited showing. Personally, coming to dressage late as I have, I would struggle mightily without regular training and if I couldn’t afford the training I would certainly drop out of showing and be one of those “came and went AAs”

I think this is an insightful direction for this to go in: things where I’m at (and it sounds like possibly beyond just my region) are just expensive.

Boarding is expensive and seems likely to only get more-so with rising property costs and development in suburban areas.

Compound this with training costs (lessons, training rides, or full training) and there’s a very clear challenge.

Industry professionals absolutely need to earn a living (barn owners, trainers, etc). Vets, feed suppliers, farriers, etc, also should command market-competitive pricing for their goods and services. But we do seem like we’ve hit a situation where the industry costs (goods, services, and horses) are out-pacing what the average middle class salary is (and not reflected in the average raise or bonuses that people are getting annually). Add this into expensive showing (that often seem like they can nickel and dime competitors), membership fees to organizations, horse registrations for those organizations, etc, and it’s clear to see how the financial burden of being in an area productive to “riding dressage” is prohibitive.

I could relocate a horse to a more rural area, pay for less expensive board, quit all my organizations, and save a ton of money even as I lose out on training opportunities. (And if you intend to keep training while going rural, then you’d best be equipped with a truck/trailer to haul your horse back and forth to a trainer who’ll accept drive-in clients. OR have a trainer who is willing to travel to you, but those seem fewer and farther between as the years go on.)

[LarkspurCO]

@pluvinel

Saying that QH’s are “tractable” and “novice or beginner friendly” is a copout for not teaching basic manners.

No it’s not. It’s a simple statement based on the real world. Horse breeds were developed for certain characteristics, and temperament is a prime consideration.

Horses are horses and don’t come out of the womb knowing how to be well behaved. A polite horse is a trained horse.

I don’t disagree about the training, but a lot of horses are practically “born broke.” I have known, worked with and owned a number of them myself. Temperament matters. A lot.

[LarkspurCO]

@atlatl

They are all individuals. I’ve been around plenty of obnoxious quarter horses that were spoilt. I blame the handlers. My WB gelding is half TB, hot and sensitive but he sure doesn’t run me over because he’s been trained not to.

I’m not denying your experience, but in training any animal, especially a horse, temperament is a huge factor that cannot honestly be discounted. I have broken out enough horses and fixed enough broken horses in my life to have seen this over and over again.

That is why my QH mare never needed to any preparation for standing perfectly quietly next to a railroad crossing as a noisy freight train passed by, horn blaring and brakes squealing, on her first ever ride away from home. And it’s why my TB/Perch cross would never, could never and will never be able to stand quietly next to that train.

I even read the brochure!

Temperament

American Quarter Horses are generally calm and docile. They are also highly intelligent; however, most are easily trained, handled, and kept. Because of their gentle and steady demeanor, the breed is an ideal family horse and well suited for the beginning rider.

[Manni01]

a nice article about the Dressage journey…
https://dressagetoday.com/blog/dressage-its-all-about-the-journey?utm_source=DressageTodayFB&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=Facebook

[Cowgirl]

Well boarding for me is the biggest issue. Today, I heard about a place now advertising dressage boarding within my commute zone. I know the barn: the owners kick everyone out from time to time and try to sell. Most recently they kicked out a jumper trainer. So that is the first strike–you’d always be wondering when they got fed up again. But the real first strike is that they are only charging $625 a month for full board in an area where $900+ is common. So to me, what that is telling me is that their business model is messed up: they undercharge for board, they can’t deliver what they promise, people start complaining, they get fed up and kick everyone out and put the place on the market. Anyway, that’s what flashed before my eyes when I read the ad. I didn’t even call.

[meupatdoes]

@Mondo

“…it’s really something about warmbloods I’ve seen, of a variety of breeding, where it’s NOT training or misbehavior, but an inability to be peaceful.” Really? I can’t think of any warmbloods (that’s kind of painting with a broad brush) I know, have owned, have trained, have worked with that behave that way. That would be a fairly large number of horses I’m using for my empirical evidence here.

I can think of roughly a million, but many more dressage horse wbs than hunters wbs.

Whether it’s a breeding/temperament thing or more of a discipline specific culture thing, dressage horse ime have the worst ground manners.

I want to make crossties illegal so everyone would have to teach the horses to fkn STAND.