OR, for whatever reason their mortgage is paid off so they can undercut everyone else who is still sending 20% of their gross to the bank.
1 Like
Years ago, during the summer between my first and second year of university, I did a stint as a working student at a dressage barn in New York. I had grown up showing in the Colorado dressage scene, which was laid back, amateur and off-breed friendly in those days (the mid-to-late 1990s), although I am not so sure that it is now. The East Coast scene was on a different planet and the trainer enlightened me to how little I wanted to be on that planet.
One of the horses I regularly rode for him was a nice Hanoverian gelding owned by one of his clients, a teenage girl. The teenager was slightly afraid of the horse and always rode him in draw reins. The horse, however, was a gentleman and I found him a delightful ride. The trainer thought we got on so well he kept nagging me to buy him. For how much? $30,000. LOL. Iāll see what spare change I have under my car seats.
The trainer was reluctant to invest any time on working with me and my Shire/TB mare. One of the other working students had an OTTB and he was equally as reluctant to work with them. In his view, these horses didnāt have enough dressage potential to be worth his time. Nagging me to sell my mare and buy a dressage horse (preferably from him) was worth his time. Nothing was helped by his training/riding style, either, which entailed holding the horse in a strong contact and driving it into that hand from a stronger seat and leg. This works (ish) with some of the warmbloods, but it shut my mare down. Sheād tune you out. So of course the trainer upped the ante and started having me ride her in spurs. He remained stalwart in his view that she was useless as a dressage horse because she would not become forward or light. I didnāt get any exposure to classical/French style until years later, which was the key to getting that horse engaged, light, and responsive.
Oh, yes, the ground manners. Those warmbloods had terrible ground manners. They didnāt stand still, some of them nipped, leading them around was a dance between getting squashed and flying kites. One time I was doing a wee bit of groundwork with one in an attempt to make the walk from the stable to the paddock less unpleasant, and the trainer pointed out that I was wasting my time. āThese German horses,ā he said. āThey are not like your horse. They canāt be trained in the same way. They are too smart.ā
That said, the yard owner at my non-competitive/ non-dressage yard in Scotland once said the same thing regarding his horses ā who also have useless ground manners-- during my brief stint working there. āThese horses arenāt like your horse.ā As if my horse is some magical creature that popped out of her motherās womb knowing how to calmly lead, stand tied, stand untied, and not run you over.
I donāt think there is anything inherent about any breed that makes it impossible to teach ground manners. Some people just donāt bother.
6 Likes
I donāt think the ground manners discussion is what is causing dressage to decline (if it is). My list of what I think is/or could be causing a decline:
Cost - Cost of a horse, tack, boarding or property if at home, cost of care etc.
Time - Most AAās and probably some FEI level riders work full time, so time becomes an issue.
Availability or access to instruction - lack of good trainers, clinicians, show
Lack of school masters - to learn on or at least lesson on occasionally.
Attitude - dressage can and often does come across as elitist of snobby and not welcoming
Breed bias - by judges, trainers, clinicians,
Lack of support for those in the lower levels, AA especially - by USDF or other organizations. I see very little in the USDF web site that address AA other than what is related to showing. See lots of programs for JRs and professionals, instructors certifications, trainers conferences etc.
8 Likes
I just flat out feel at a loss. My trainer, who is exceptional, is 70+ miles away. With traffic, thatās 1 1/2 hours driving one way plus considering tack up time, waiting for lesson, etc. Itās almost an all-day event. Right now, I donāt have a dressage horse, so thereās at least $30,000 plus monthly training costs that equal a house payment.Iāll probably get out of riding in the next few years due to age, so Iām thinking about leasing a horse. That still leaves me with essentially the same problems (time, distance and money). Sorry about the complaining. My heart is still there, other things arenāt falling in place though! Thanks for listening.
Gee Dressage59,I hope it isnāt health issues that mean you intend to get out of riding in the next few years. Iām almost 73 and still riding daily. Also, because of the horse, still working full time. My big fear is that financial circumstances will force me to stop, not age. I hope things work out for you.
2 Likes
Thatās really interesting-- either you buy into full care and full training as that pro does it, or you canāt get training at all. I have a truck and trailer, so I didnāt realize that was A Thing for so many people. But of course it would be!
That is right. And those who are paying on a note and/or trying to run a professional boarding barn vs. those who are doing this for fun and/or paid off their mortgage long ago are quite different.
IME, the people who made their money somewhere else and now own a farm for fun donāt know how to run a boarding business like a business. Everyone is unhappy. Those who were horsemen of yestercentury and have now paid off their note are tired. They keep the farm and price things just to create cash flow with the relatively un-liquid asset they have until someone with enough money comes along and causes them to sell to a developer.
This makes it very hard for anyone who wants to be in the actual boarding business to enter the business. I know I have scaled back my plans to the size farm I could run by myself if no one wanted to pay for the standard of care I want to deliver and charge for.
It probably isnāt entirely black and white, there certainly are folks like you with a truck and trailer and doing quite well, but I feel the gap is widening and there are fewer people who can make it work in between. But the folks at the top end seem to have plenty of money, so the full care/training options continue to go up in cost.
And yes, there is pressure on the availability of land from developers. Even boarding stables in areas that are zoned ag only and canāt be used to build houses are being converted to nurseries or tomato fields or something similar.
āWhether itās a breeding/temperament thing or more of a discipline specific culture thing, dressage horse ime have the worst ground manners.ā Again, in 30 years of training, competing and teaching dressage, I have not experienced this. Where the heck are you that you see dressage warmbloods with poor ground manners? I mean, who is NOT teaching them ground manners? The first word in the official description of dressage is OBEDIENCE. I think you have been hanging around some pretty poor trainers if that is your experience.
5 Likes
Yep, the pretty poor trainers with stallions in their program that cost a quarter million dollars and were written up in Eurodressage when they were sold to the US.
Somehow their humans figured out a way to deal with the fact they were not always particularly patient on the crossties.
4 Likes
The weird thing is this. You can have excellent manners and STILL have behavior issues. My horse is Appy/Arab and big (16.2, big boned). His extended pedigree shows little, if any QH, but there is a bit of ASB, 6 or more generations back. The breeder - or whoever handles her babies prior to them being started under saddle - did a good job. He leadS, ties, easily loads into the trailer, stands quietly tied to the trailer at shows or at home, respects his handlerās space, is quiet in the cross-ties - practically goes to sleep while being groomed (unless something visually distracts him, but then he still stands quietly, just is more alert.) You can saddle, bridle, lead him quietly up to the arena, get on and find he is (a) quiet and ready to work, or (b) has a camel sized hump in his back, wonāt go forward into contact, and jumps if you put your legs on. He is and has always been hyper-alert and spooky. I just deal with it. So breed-wise I have Appy (quiet), ASB (generally horses of good temperament), some TB (dam 1/4 TB) and purebred Arabian sire. I want to blame the Arabian part, but I know dead quiet, well-mannered Arabians, soā¦
While my experience with WBs is limited, the only one I personally have dealt with extensively that had āissuesā with behavior on the ground and/or under saddle was a friendās very beautiful, modern Hanoverian. At one point, she declined to sell him to an experienced GP rider, because she thought he was too dangerous for that particular person (but not me, apparently - I rode him a lot!) Another horse owned by the same friend was a Trakhener (Inshallah bloodlines.) He was the one who was supposed to be hot, but he was a total gentleman, on the ground or under saddle. So Iām of two minds about WB temperament versus QH or anything else. Iām the first to get on my soapbox about how the ApHC is ruining the breed by too much QH outcrossing, but there are days I wouldnāt mind a little āquietā QH in my horseās mix. LOL!!!
I left Southern Calif(Ventura/Ojai) after operating a small training barn for over a decade. I trained and taught beginners to 3rd/4th level and my students did well enough to win at Junior Championships, high point at shows, etcā¦on horses we trained together. Some were warmbloods or crosses, most were under $15K by a long way, homebreds, Arabs. I left and moved to NorCal because I saw the writing on the wallā¦I wouldnāt be able support myself or my horses and eventually the barns would be gone. This has happened as friends/clients have kept me updated on SoCal horse happeings. Up north in Humboldt county, there were never really any ābarnsā, really just 3 boarding facilities, always with a waiting list. I went back to an office job because there are not enough people to base a clientele on, which I knew coming up hereā¦ I can support my one horse and have hopes to get back to showing, but money will be tight for sure. I would love to be able to teach dressage again, so the mentions of places with no instructors intrigues me as the pot/crime here has got me thinking of moving again. BTW, I bought my horse for $3500 and at his first clinic the judge said she would give him an 8 on gaits as a 4yr oldā¦ So you can buy inexpensive but you have to educate yourself in order to make that happen.
1 Like
So I have ridden three full siblings with European WB breeding, though they were bred in the US. Same training on all three.
Two are the types who have trouble standing in cross ties. While you work on them, they will be still and mannerly. Leave them alone, and front legs start flying through the air because they simply must do SOMETHING besides stand still. Not destructive, not even actually pawing, just leg in the air as if they were going to paw.
Number three sibling has the least training of the full siblings. Put her in cross ties, and sheāll stand there for hours, no problem. They all live out and the first two are just CONSTANTLY going. Number three has huge power under saddle, and happily goes forward. But is just more mentally settled. More like the higher energy quarter horses Iāve known - who are born happy to go when you ask, or stand and chill when youāre not asking. Itās definitely NOT training which is different from the first two, and just natural for horse #3. My experience is that it seems as if warmblood breeders simply accept a lack of that quality and great mind in their horses. Also, Iām trying to figure out a way to get horse #3 for myself as my next young horse, because that is a horse who I should be able to pretty easily train up the levels with guidance and me doing the work. She has the type of brain I grew up with around quarter horses. I DO NOT believe you have to sacrifice this mentality for quality in a horse. My understanding is itās the type of temperament many D-line and R-line Hanoverians have, though I donāt have experience with any of them.
As far as spoiling horses? I think just about any type of horse can be ruined. Thatās far easier than training well!
āYep, the pretty poor trainers with stallions in their program that cost a quarter million dollars and were written up in Eurodressage when they were sold to the US.ā Well I think this is rather telling. If the horses you are referring to came from Europe, perhaps that is not something they are trained in the barns they came from. I also know that a lot of people give a pass to stallions (which is a really stupid thing to do IMO) on behavior they otherwise wouldnāt tolerate.
You sound a little defensive. Iām not saying I donāt believe your experiences, Iām saying that I have had the opposite experience. I think painting all āwarmbloodsā with the same brush is a mistake. And suggesting that bad behavior has nothing to do with training, but with breed or temperament, is just plain false. So yes, I consider it poor training if people (who you seem to think are very good and very famous based on the above quote) are allowing bad (and IME dangerous) behavior in the cross ties. Money can buy fancy horses, but it canāt necessarily train them or ride them.
1 Like
I largely agree with @js and @MysticOakRanch there are lots of contributing factors which will obviously vary per region but from my view it breaks down to:
-
cost of owning any horse, anywhere is growing. This is impacted more in suburban areas where land is at a premium, so there are fewer and fewer boarding barns and training stables to choose from. You either pay out the nose for full training, or you find a non-dressage place or private board situation and try to scrape by on a lesson per week from a traveling trainer.
-
Dressage is not an easy sport to get into. Iāve lived in 2 areas where dressage is pretty popular, and even in a town with a bunch of trainers, there are almost zero opportunities for a greenhorn beginner or otherwise horseless person to take lessons. Dressage trainers just donāt have lesson strings like H/J do.
Imagine you are a horse-crazed pre-teen girl from a middle class non-horsey family and are dying to learn how to ride. If you are lucky, your parents look up the nearest lesson barn that is an acceptable driving distance and try to step into this crazy expensive foreign world of horses. They figure $40 for a once a-week lesson should be the absolute max they are willing to pay. Odds are that the only place who will take on a newbie is a low-grade āriding academyā with a bomb-proof lesson string. Sometimes the saddles are AP, sometimes western, but never dressage.
How many of us started riding in other disciplines and then converted over to dressage after years (if not decades) of riding and horse ownership when we already had a feel for our particular equestrian communities?
Upper level dressage may be growing and more visible, but there is still no effort made by the PTB to recruit the valuable market of re-riders or kids.
- Because of this somewhat insular attitude, and extremely high dollar threshold to even sit on the back of a horse, horse communities are shrinking. Even housing tracts that were zoned and planned to be ranchettes and hobby farms are being bought by rich, non-equestrian buyers who rip out barns and put in tennis courts. Out goes the arena and up goes the McMansion.
Someone upthread mentioned that other leisure sports (golf, tennis etc) get subsidized so that they are more affordable to participate in. This is true, but they get subsided because they ARE popular. The public arenas in those equestrian communities are suffering from infighting between different riding groups or general lack of use that inevitably someone at a town council meeting makes a suggestion that the arena gets taken out and sports courts put in. And if no one puts up a fight, then the loudest voice with the most weight behind it gets its way.
Every place I have lived, there has been council meetings to take away equestrian trail access, sell public land that a boarding barn is leasing or shutter a public arena. Each time, the equine community came together to keep those places open. But, if we dont care about the āgrassrootsā people like the little AA trying to make it work on a shoestring budget or provide easy access for curious, new people to take up our sport, we will not have enough numbers to keep these fights going and we will loose even more ground.
6 Likes
Lol you think the professionals who have maintained relationships with top european barns and get sent horses to campaign and sell for healthy six figures have all this going on because they ācanāt necessarily ride or train?ā
If I sound defensive what do you sound like?
1 Like
No one said, they ācanāt necessarily ride or traināā¦
Perhaps we sound like we have seen some things you havenāt.
Iām with the folks who say: Economics, at least in my area: Seattle. Just about all of the boarding barns Iāve been in have been some version of husband makes the major income, wife runs the boarding barn. Usually, but not always, husband is also on the hook for most maintenance/building/repair/improvement. That sometimes causes friction in the relationship, and the barn suffersā¦ or, gets put up for sale. These barns donāt necessarily lose money but the properties they exist on canāt be supported by boarding only. Trainers typically work in these barns, but have no ownership stake and are paying board on their own school horses also. They canāt make enough to get ahead enough to even consider buying a facility on their own. Thereās just no sustainable business model here. Board can range anywhere from $500/mo (not usually very good place) to $1000/mo without any training or lessons at all. Most times there is half day turn out or less. Once you are into the $1000/mo places, typically you are also on the hook for a program with training, lessons, etc for additional fees. Most of those expensive barns are hunter/jumper.
Board is a little less further north, but has gone up significantly in the last 5 years. The commute times start to climb quickly. It can take 2+ hours to get 30 - 50 miles some days. Thatās not very doable for someone with a job in the economic center.
I just read that the median home price in the city is now $770k, and on the east side, where the suburbs and the boarding facilities with in commuting distance are: $990k. I know San Francisco is worse. I know Portland OR is less bad but catching up. Iām just hoping I donāt get completely priced out before my current riding horse dies of old age.
Thank you so much for the inspiration! Part of its age, the other part arthritis, bursitis, fake elbow, just normal aging stuff. It makes me feel really good to hear that youāre still riding!
1 Like
Ah, I assume meds could probably get you past arthritis/bursitis, but a friend told me she may have to get an elbow replacement, and that will mean the end of riding for her. I have been fortunate, in that except for occasionally achy knees, Iām still fairly flexible and limber, so a couple of Aleves are usually sufficient to get me past any slight riding discomfort.
