Is event entries down? So 8ths scores....

[ThirdCharm]

I talked to another rider who said concerns had been raised (not sure if it was with rider reps, TD, or what) and were shot down. So didn’t seem like much point.

And of course, I felt like my horse was capable (didn’t realize the fountain would have such an effect, as those are not usually, well, present)… If the fountain hadn’t caused the problem at the water, he would have gotten around even though it was a stiff course and would not have been my preference at this point in his training. I don’t have a breakdown of the fences, but I know I saw at least 3 (out of 9) didn’t even make it as far as the water.

And clearly the HT course was misrepresented in the omnibus, which ticks me off because yeah, everyone can just withdraw after they walk it and realize the organizers didn’t bother changing the course from ‘championship’ to ‘moderate difficulty’ as advertised, but is that really the best solution?

Jennifer

[Jeannette_formerly_ponygyrl]

Were you eliminated at the water, or an accumulation of penalties?

[wildlifer]

To one point – yes, a discussion has been had about what was printed in the omnibus and yes, it should have been listed as a championship level course. However, one cannot say for one second that anyone “didn’t bother” to do anything; the amount of effort and time and planning and care and heart that go into this thing are mind-boggling. The planning for the 2015 event…started on Sunday after show jumping. There is not a single step taken flippantly, so please don’t go there unless you’ve volunteered your time there.

That said, as you probably know, I’ve been part of core staff for this event for two years now. (and hi, Jeanette, so glad y’all were able to make it!) Tremaine is an EXTREMELY thoughtful and careful designer and it shows. I love the flow of his courses and he will indeed ask horse and rider if they have truly done their homework.

Everyone involved in putting this event on, judges and the organizer and designers/builders and safety coordinators and radio supervisors, are at the top of the game. And I know them all very well.

(1) If concerns were raised to the TD & PGJ, both are fantastic women dedicated to the sport who also are adult amateur eventers. They are also compassionate people who want everyone to do well and do not ever “shoot down” legitimate concerns. They are always kind and generous – even when competitors are less so. But there is still a rule book.

(2) Since the same folks ran/worked both events, I saw both groups of horses/riders, the 3DE folks and the HT folks. In quite a number of cases, the HT horses were vastly underprepared or riders were sometimes concerning. Although I will say, in both groups, the number of people who complained about things spooking their horses was disappointing – but it’s always something: cows at Pine Top, big white dogs at Waredaca, birds here, heck the Ark has zebras and llamas! Heck, mine ALWAYS go poorly in the dressage at CHP – and they don’t even have an excuse!! But that is MY responsibility and tells me that MY training needs to be better.

Stops happen. Falls happen. Brain farts where riders wander desperately around the course trying to find the next jump happen. To my knowledge, there were no injuries other than some bruises and some pride.

However, it is still OUR responsibility as riders to do the homework to minimize the risk of those things (and don’t we know that the omnibus descriptions are fairly meaningless by now?). I’ve put my time in volunteering for 5 years now. I’ve walked both 3DE courses with designers and 4* riders. I’ve talked to folks when they’ve come off the courses and the judges who sat at the jumps. And so I learned that I would never take my horse to a HT that was held alongside one of these events unless I was 100% sure he was ready for a championship level course. And that is what that event was designed and built for.

Nothing and no one is perfect, but let’s don’t go pointing half-cocked fingers based on what someone heard from someone else with little thought of what the big picture might be.

[saje]

Three loud cheers for Wildlifer!

[saje]

[QUOTE=ThirdCharm;7564361]

And clearly the HT course was misrepresented in the omnibus, which ticks me off because yeah, everyone can just withdraw after they walk it and realize the organizers didn’t bother changing the course from ‘championship’ to ‘moderate difficulty’ as advertised, but is that really the best solution?

Jennifer[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=wildlifer;7564497]
However, it is still OUR responsibility as riders to do the homework to minimize the risk of those things (and don’t we know that the omnibus descriptions are fairly meaningless by now?).[/QUOTE]

IMO, if the omnibus description of a course is anything other than “good move-up” or “average for horses with some experience at this level” I assume it’s going to be a testing course and I and my horse had better be ready to be challenged, especially if there’s a Championship division along with regular HT. Omnibus descriptions are notoriously useless, for the most part. I think that they get written for the first implementation of the event, and then never changed - the dates and officials and fees change but the rest is treated as boilerplate stuff. (Maybe not, but that’s my impression)

This is not a new problem, and the OP is not new to the event world.

[ThirdCharm]

Ok, so riders fault for believing omnibus listing and event pr, I guess when I think of ‘getting back to eventing’s real meaning’ my mind does not leap to Martha Stewart meets Cpt Mark Phillips. And this is the first year they ran horse trials divisions, So there wasn’t really anything to go by for that. Although judging by my PMs and emails Word-of-mouth should have interesting results for next year.

Yes, horses spook. My horse regrettably was so spooked by the fountain he stopped twice at the water because he was sideways to the fence. And was so rattled he then stopped at the sunken road and was excused (though he did jump through it). At least unlike most of the division he got that far. I shall certainly endeavor to acclimatize him to fountains prior to assaying another event featuring one.

Jennifer

[FairWeather]

So, isn’t this the first time they’ve run an HT in combination with the T3D? If so, why on earth would someone bring a horse green to the level and green to recognized showing to it?

[Jeannette_formerly_ponygyrl]

If word of mouth results in pairs arriving prepared for the level, that’s a service to horses, riders, officials, and spectators.

Certainly, training horses to understand ditches, banks, and water is a basic part of event training. Training them to go forward from a light leg is an even more basic skill.

I am not trying to pick on riders who had problems this weekend. But honestly, the essential eventer skill I value is the in-the-moment and afterward problem solving skill. There is ALWAYS something we can improve about our riding, training, and teaching. Eventing can be mighty humbling alongside its’ exhilaration, but if we learn to use those humbling moments to notice holes in our ideal preparation, then the weekend isn’t a loss. IF we instead blame the horse/the designer/the organizer/the weather - well, the very most generous thing I can say is good luck with that!

There is no shame in ending the occasional event with a letter instead of a number. There is shame in refusing to take responsibility for that letter.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=ThirdCharm;7564935]

Yes, horses spook. My horse regrettably was so spooked by the fountain he stopped twice at the water because he was sideways to the fence.
Jennifer[/QUOTE]
I think you just helped explain what happen with my guy at our water. Since I started with him he never shied at water. I remember early on being told by my trainer at Full gallop “make sure you come to trot before the water” and instead Sterling just told me “to hell with that, we’re going bold”.

At So8s I thought it was the blue water that threw him, but now I think it could have been the fountain (I never noticed it) for he, like your horse was almost sideways going in and came to trot which is never done. I was so focused on forward I didn’t do anything else but tell him get along there doggie, we got a combination to eat. That brought him back to the game and off we went. Our pause at the sunken road drop was all me for that was not a BN height, we had schooled something like that at FENCE (I swear it felt Training height) and honestly, I was more scared than Sterling. He paused because of me and that I need to change.

At the end of it all, I found the course at BN to be the most challenging course I’ve ridden and made my Novice go at FENCE look easy. I’m not the biggest fan of all the pretty stuff like carvings on fences and I guess fountains, but it is also something, as riders, we need to deal with to help our horses. Now, when I walk a course I will not just look at the fence for difficulty, I will look around the fence to see what may distract him and make sure I deal with it before we get there. And to WildFire, thanks for all you’ve done for it was a spectacular event, one I want to do again.

[PhoenixFarm]

Ya know, I just have to say something. I have no dog in this fight, am on the opposite side of the world, etc. consider this a general comment, rather than a specific one.

But. In all aspects of life I must admit I have a real issue with the idea that those suffering issues are automatically at fault, and the teacher/course designer/whatever bears no responsibility.

I once took a college course wherein halfway through the semester 95% of the class was failing. The. 5% that weren’t failing had D’s. now, it’s possible that we were a class of morons who just happened to end up in the same classroom after faking our way through two years of college. Or, it was also possible we had a lousy teacher who was writing tests out of a textbook we didn’t have. Guess which one the admin decided it was? Hint:I don’t have an F on my transcript.

I understand that events are labors of love, and thus bring out defensive tendencies. But I truly don’t understand the mindset of, “all the riders suck and aren’t prepared” in the face of outside the norm statistics. Most course designers take those statistics very seriously, and examine any question with skewed results carefully. Not just simply assume that every rider in the division was just an idiot. I’m certain no one intends these things to happen–no nefarious course designers implied. But I also think its not correct to assume its all the riders either.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=ThirdCharm;7563641]
Tlw–
We are talking about the Heart of the Carolinas 3-day event and HT… According to the Omnibus, the 3-day courses were to be championship caliber, (which they were, most of the riders I spoke to felt the Training course was 3’3" Prelim questions), while the HT courses were to be of moderate difficulty for horses with some experience at the level. I didn’t walk BN or N, but they removed ONE fence from the 3day course for the HT, resulting in the elimination of 7 out of 9 entries in the OT HT.

Jennifer[/QUOTE]

Well…it is pretty typical for the HT to run over much of the same course as the Waradaca 3-Day. Typically the HT will have only one or two fences different with a few more options (fences numbered at the HT and made ABC at the 3-day). Generally, if you run around the Training 3-day well, you should be ready to move up to Prelim. And likewise, if you have a good run at the HT, and take the direct routes, it is a good prep for moving up to Prelim. At least that is how it has been for years at both Waradaca and the Heart of Carolinas 3-day.

The course description of Moderate…is what is typical to me of harder courses (most courses are described as average for a horse with experience). Also ANY time I know they are running a championship and a HT together…I expect the non-championship courses to almost the same so I do expect it to be tougher. But that has just been my experience over the years.

[goodmorning]

The course sounds pretty ugly, even by those in support of it.

It’s Training Level. A lower level. How quickly do we forget all the posts about the LL riders not enjoying the new courses? The pages of discussion on how to attract the LL competitor? Rolex had “prelim height” fences in a way to make them /* questions. Sounds like there’s a disconnect here. Training isn’t “big” enough to send so many horses home without good reason. Weather wasn’t listed as a factor. The fountains & sculptures sound ugly. Leave it for the ULs who continue to support the backwards FEI.

I’m sure it’s a great event, but it doesn’t mean it can’t be improved upon. And that you can’t dislike it, critique it, or have a discussion about it. Quite frankly it’s sad to see the support of the UL riders who whine about their courses, but the LL divisions told to buck up.

[wildlifer]

[QUOTE=PhoenixFarm;7565170]
But I truly don’t understand the mindset of, “all the riders suck and aren’t prepared” in the face of outside the norm statistics. Most course designers take those statistics very seriously, and examine any question with skewed results carefully. [/QUOTE]

It is hard for me to include every detail in a post without writing ‘War & Peace’, LOL, sorry, you can blame the ADHD.

There are a zillion variables on course, we know that. And I promise you that Tremaine is deadly serious about examining every course and thinking about how it can be better/more successful/have more flow the next time out.

Indeed, there IS always room for improvement and discussion. By no means do I intend to imply that “all riders suck”, I don’t always get my phrasing spot-on, even after 5 proofreads. Yes, an accusatory tone mashes my loyalty buttons & compels me to challenge incorrect assumptions or connotations. However, as a professional adult, rational, constructive, and informed feedback is invaluable!!

The only things I take issue with are those that leap to conclusions. I attended an event where there WAS a huge, HUGE SNAFU on the part of event management and my heart horse and I had an accident that ended his T career and left me with a permanent injury.

Three years later, I still blame myself, even though the conditions never should have happened – because I did not step back, take a breath, and withdraw. My horse’s only advocate is ME. And I’ll pay for that literally with every step for the rest of my life. Even worse, I asked too much of my buddy and I am very lucky that he is still happy and rideable.

Everyone has their own bogies and their unique set of challenges. You know who I respected the most all weekend? A young girl in the N3DE who was going to finish well into the ribbons – but pulled up 1/2 way around her stadium course because she felt that it just wasn’t her horse’s day. Mad horsemanship props, young lady, and from what I’ve heard of her mother, well-taught indeed.

From my perspective, the results support a very different conclusion: how important, beneficial, & educational Phase A, B, & C truly are to horse and rider, bringing them to Phase D primed for the course itself, mentally and physically.

[pegasusmom]

Just in case anyone is interested, the Southern Eighths Farm website has excellent videos, not only overviews of the event itself from 2011 and 2012, but helmet cam rides of all three divisions from last year.

www.so8ths.com

[saje]

Pictures are up!

http://brantgamma.exposuremanager.com/g/heart_of_the_carolinas_3-day__ht

What a beautiful course!