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Is it a problem in the hind end, and if so, what?

Dressage
#1

Posting this here, rather than horse care, in hopes of more variety in answers.

I used to have an Arab mare who cantered like a deer. It sucked and I never could train it out of her. Lots of arabs move like that so it never occurred to me it might be a physical issue and back then we’d never have looked for it anyway.

So fast forward to now. I’m horse shopping and I found a nice OTTB I like. At least maybe I do. He came off the track in November, was let down all winter and restarted in late May. I like him mentally, so far. I am not so sure about how he uses himself.
I get he was a racehorse and all that…but he’s been off the track long enough that shouldn’t his muscles be let down enough to allow him to move more in however is “normal” for him? When he trots off he has a lot of action in the hock, when he canters off he tends to dig in and push off quickly with not much space between his hind legs - I call it ‘bounding like a deer’. He seems to have a hard time relaxing his back. Today as I watched I notice he moves “like a cat” - the legs go but the back is sunk down and the head is up.
I’ve ridden him three times now and basically my whole goal has been can/will you accept the bit quietly and can/will you go forward and by doing so will your back relax at that spot right behind the saddle so your back can come through? At the walk. Not asking for anything else yet. He’s very green at any lateral work yet so using that to help loosen him up is iffy. It seems to help for a few strides then he’s tight again. I get the sense he’d like to try, but maybe can’t. His walk is rather slow, even when I give him loose reins.

My guesses are: stifles, hocks, SI, or maybe even lower in the leg or elsewhere in the hip/back.

Thoughts?

I’d like to take this horse in on trial - they’ve agreed to 10 days - during which time I’d be working with him daily. Thinking that doing what I do, daily, as opposed to what he does now, does it make a difference? Because it could be anything from saddle fit to who the heck knows what. During the trial I’d have him vetted.
Or maybe just on what I’m seeing right now it’s not even worth it at all. I just don’t know. I can’t keep going out there to ride him, I need to make some sort of decision.
I have a limited budget and I know I’ll be picking a project I just want to try to pick the right one.

And yes, I know a canter and a walk are ‘must haves’ for any reasonable dressage horse!

#2

Have you started any colts or have you restarted any OTTB right off the track? Because no one will have taught an OTTB whatva bit is for orbput any work into his walk or trot. Lots of them move upside down. It sounds like whoever has restarted him may not have tons of tools in their training kit.

He could be injured. But nothing you describe requires injuries to manifest in a very green horse.

How does he move at liberty? Is his overall skeleton uphill or downhill?

1 Like
#3

Body work and correct riding will help him reshape his physique and movement. If you like his mind and conformation, vet him and go from there.

4 Likes
#4

I haven’t seen a lot of liberty stuff, but I tried to get more yesterday (he was pacing the fenceline looking for his buddy). The only day I got a decent walk out of him was when I rode him after he’d had a day off. I am NOT asking him to “go on the bit” I am only asking him to walk! Just walk already. Most horses whether upside down or inside out will just walk and their backs naturally move.
I 1000% agree that time and proper work can do a ton for a horse. But I’ve had 3 in my life that moved like this - the arab I mentioned - and 2 others, both young, one I bought as a baby, both ‘leg movers’ who did the ‘cat crouch’ and while I can’t speak for the first one (too long ago), the second one DEFINITELY had hock and stifle issues.

His skeletal build is what attracted me to look at him in the first place. It wouldn’t matter my budget be 2 bucks or 2 million bucks, if he isn’t going to work he isn’t going to work! I’m trying to puzzle out as much as I can before I make any further commitment.

I would figure any horse with 8+ mos off would be back to moving ‘normal’ unless they are injured. And since he is an OTTB, the likelihood of injury is higher than normal.

#5

Without video, it’s hard to be certain whether I 100% understand your meaning, but even just in terms of relaxation and suppleness, this isn’t IME true. Admittedly, I have limited experience with OTTBs, but lots of experience with horses who had used their bodies incorrectly for long enough to be persistently stiff and default to the same incorrect movement, even after time off. I would imagine the greater benefit of letting down is the mental decompression, like installing a reset button for what the expectations for daily life will be.

My current horse is a race-bred tb who never made it to training, I believe due to a pasture injury. He does have hind end discomfort from that injury (it was in one stifle, the rest of the discomfort is in compensation). He actually has excellent rear separation at the canter unless I’m riding him too tight front to back and not actually letting him use his topline and neck. (This was one of many reasons I picked him. He also vetted clean, albeit w/o xrays. The stifle problem didn’t manifest in work until 3 years later, eventing at training level.)

The horse you’re considering sounds to me like he only knows how to move with a tight back, esp. with a rider. However, your concerns are understandable esp. given your past experience, and it may be impossible to say whether there’s a problem without just getting a vet out there to check him. If you are seriously concerned enough about this for it to affect the trial, I would recommend vetting him before bothering to take him home for 10 days. You haven’t indicated this is the case for you, I’m just relaying my personal barometer. I had these nagging concerns about my gelding being uncomfortable for a while before I did anything about it, since it seemed to be in the normal spectrum of “unfit”. But I also wasn’t committing to my training regimen or lessons due to my worry, and when I thought about it in those terms, it was obviously time to call the vet.

I too would guess SI, stifles, or hocks. If there’s no asymmetry in his action, then it’s less likely that there was an acute injury to a hock/stifle (though doesn’t rule the possibility out completely, as with my horse). The high hock action makes me think his hocks are likely not the problem. Can someone help you flex the stifles? Re: SI pain, there are videos on youtube that can show you how to check for it, and I saw an article online somewhere a little while ago which shows you how to look for asymmetries in the hip that would be indicative of back problems coming from injuries. That might be useful to search for too.

Other questions:

  • Is it particularly hard to pick up any of his feet? Yes means he doesn’t know how to rebalance himself on 3 legs, which may be expected, but can point to hind end discomfort, especially if he wants to shift weight between his hind feet when you’re holding a front foot up.
  • Does he tend to cock his hind foot more than a normal horse when e.g. standing in cross-ties?
  • Definitely get him out at liberty and pay attention to how he uses his body without a rider. Does he have better separation at the canter on one lead than the other? How does he use his hind end around corners?
#6

It’s true he could be injured. But it’s also true that a horse with ingrained bad habits of moving will not necessarily spontaneously fix them just by being b
on pasture. If that was true we wouldn’t need dressage!

There is also the question of, if there is a physical basis for this movement, is it an injury per se or is it just tight or incorrect muscle development or tightness.

I don’t think we can possibly diagnose this horse on the internet. If you do take him for trial obviously get a good PPE but also get a good chiropractor or body worker to assess and treat him. And have a good farrier look at his feet.

That said, you might want to pass on this horse injured or not if you don’t feel you have the tools on your training kit to positively influence his way of going in a reasonable time frame, ie under a year, before you can begin actual training. You day you’ve had other horses that were upside down and/or back movers, and weren’t able to fix them.

My coach has a bit of a specialty in fixing this spectrum of movement issues, but I haven’t met anyone else who does it, and it isn’t necessarily a fast process as the horse needs to rebuild correct muscle.

One of the interesting things about upside down horses and injuries is that it is a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. Which comes first? Upside down movement doesn’t hurt a pasture horse (look at how some mustangs move) but a horse ridden while it’s in that posture will develop hind end issues sooner rather than later which will of course exacerbate the problem.

If you want an easy OTTB project I would pick.one that has nice movement at liberty so you don’t need to spend six months or a year changing how carries itself. You won’t make much headway in ten days.

#7

Can you get a bodyworker/chiro out to assess him? It would be cheaper than a PPE and the bodyworker could identify any areas where he is sore or out and what the prognosis is before you plop down hundreds or more on a PPE.

#8

It is obvious that this is not a question that can be accurately answered on a BB. This is a situation where a very knowledgeable eye, one that understands movement, shoeing and veterinary knowledge would be invaluable.

#9

You all give me good points to consider. I am not going to spend thousands chasing down a ?? that may or may not come to anything at all in soundness and then another year or god knows trying to ride it correctly. Hard enough to ride the “easy” ones. And I’ve been there, done that and frankly it’s not much fun, and even less fun on a ‘prospect’.

Some years back I rode a mare who was a jumper. She was very, very tight in her shoulders. My trainer bought her for a broodmare. A little over a year later I had occasion to be at my trainers home, and I asked “who’s the chestnut?” I literally did not recognize her - a year off had done that much to change how she moved. So I guess I imagined it does that for most any horse.

And no, @merrygoround this cannot be ‘diagnosed’ via BB. I simply wanted others viewpoints/experiences on horses that move like this. It has always puzzled me, as it isn’t all that common.

I guess maybe my question should have been ‘have you ever had a horse who’s body looked like it needed a huge dose of muscle relaxers and if so what happened about a year into it’… because that was what went thru my head the first time I saw him.
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#10

Absolutely.

Some needed proper muscle development and time. Others had major underlying pain issues.

I know that’s not terribly helpful.

If you take him on trial I would definitely lunge him without side reins or any equipment both directions W/T/C (if he knows how to safely), walk and trot in hand on straight lines (hard and soft surfaces), and video everything.

Being able to sit back and watch a video can be really eye-opening.

#11

Have you had a chance to evaluate his movement at liberty with no tack? Is it different than with tack?

1 Like
#12

Cantering close behind and soreness/tightness in the back are classic signs of hock problems. Obvioulsy it could be any number of things. But they tend to canter with the hind legs close together and not tracking up much in order to alleviate the strain and pain from pushing off. Also they hold tension in the back, especially the lumbar region again to attempt to compensate for the hock pain. Since you asked for opinions, based on that alone I’d pass. By the time you have the horse vetted for hock issues (farm call, flexions, x-rays) and then inject the hocks and maintain with adequan or pentosan, you’ll have spent between $1500-2000, and if his hocks are fusing it could go quickly, or it could take forever, and sometimes they never fuse. But either way it sounds like a lot of potential heartache.

1 Like
#13

The horse is a well trained Racehorse, if he spent any time at the track with reasonable success. He is moving how he was trained to move.

OTTB are RETRAINING projects, not green or not started prospects. Find a trainer who has restarted OTTB to help you evaluate. It takes a bit of guts and self confidence to buy off the track and come out with good horses time and again.

In my experience, what your describing can be normal until they are retrained to move like a performance horse. As I couldn’t ride them at the track, I watched for limb flight symmetry in walk and trot; and bought when the brain and conformation were what I wanted. They will all move one handed (or very crooked), extremely so, so plan for good chiro once a month for first few months.

Best of luck.

1 Like
#14

Only once, really. The second time I went out, I watched him looking for his buddy. He trotted down the wall, and I caught a glimpse of ‘holy cow’ because he lifted his shoulders up and came thru behind. Then, he galloped down (hand gallop, not run) and stopped to turn, his hocks were so deep a reining horse would cry. THAT’s what made me go back a third time.
But. Does…not…mean…he’s…sound.

Third time, I purposely tried to move him at liberty but he just wasn’t interested.

He lunges fabulously, both directions. Whoever taught him that should be commended! No chain, no bridle, just a halter and he does not pull and is respectful of not coming in to you. However, he just won’t relax. I tried really hard to just trot him, to see if just the monotony of it would cause his neck to drop a bit, things to loosen up, but it just wasn’t happening.

The second time I tried him, I used my saddle and he had not been ridden the day before. He was a much happier horse and I thought okay, there is something here I could work with. Third time, no. But he’d been ridden the day before. Sore from the person who’s riding him? Why? Saddle fit? who the heck knows.

I hate puzzles and I like to ‘solve’ things; but this is more than I can take on, I think. I don’t have the money or the time to make an experiment out of it.

#15

Speaking in generalities… my lameness specialist vet (from Oakhurst, OP) told me that often the “bunny hopping” behind at the canter is an indicator of hock soreness. Whether that’s caused by his way of going, the angles of his feet, or from arthritis or an injury, well, that’s where a PPE would come in.

Why is it such a challenge to find one that has soundness of both mind AND body? :lol: The world may never know.

1 Like
#16

If you’ve had three horses who were tight behind and one who was tight in front, sound or not I would recommend against this horse for you.

Ex racehorses are often tight and can use chiro and massage to help loosen up the SI area. Given this horse can move at liberty my instinct is to say it’s sound and needs time. However, it sounds like you haven’t had the ability to develop looseness in a horse in the past - I would say stick to what you ARE good at fixing instead. I’m great at looseness, but feel like I’m going to die if I have to ride something which doesn’t want to get moving. An advantage to being an amateur is no one else is going to make us ride horses we don’t want to, and I wouldn’t choose a slug for myself. This may be the type you should avoid for yourself if you want to enjoy riding.

1 Like
#17

I had the same thoughts as others after reading your OP. What he’s doing doesn’t necessarily sound like lameness. But the first thing that popped into my head is, why wouldn’t you have a PPE before deciding whether or not to acquire this horse?

Second thing that popped into my head (and forgive if it’s been mentioned, I only skimmed the later responses) is has he been treated for ulcers? I’ve rehabbed/retrained/recycled a LOT of OTTBs over the years and I can tell you that ulcers are extremely common in these guys. They start a very high-stress life at a young age and develop ulcers easily. That would be my first thing to address - treat him for ulcers and see if you notice him relax. The hopping that you are describing can be one way of the horse communicating that his tummy hurts and he gets heartburn the more he works.

Good luck!

#18

The 3 horses I spoke of were all so many years apart that them being ‘odd’ in the back end had nothing to do with me. :slight_smile: One was an Arab - and in learning I found that many move this way especially the halter bred ones. The second one was picked out for me by my trainer. The third one, hock/stifle issues discovered at age 5 and in hindsight had developed at a much younger age.
So I developed my eye in watching for these oddities, is all. I’m actually pretty good at getting a horse to loosen and go forward quietly. :slight_smile:

And yes, I too feel like I’m going to die if I can’t get moving! LOL. So no, this horse isn’t going to do it for me. I still think he’s got an unsoundness back there. Just my gut feeling.

@Mondo I would not be at all surprised if he’s got ulcers etc. And a PPE would be without question. But I only have a budget going to stretch so far. I really have no desire to try to fix all the potential what-if’s and still not have the horse I want. That’s a black money pit hole. :no:

#19

If the horse is free or very, very, inexpensive I might take a chance on taking him without a PPE and try and figure it out later. The thing is you might spend more $$ in the long run and risk being heartbroken. It could be any thing from hocks to a selenium deficiency. As someone else said a film would help.

And I always say…go with your gut.

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