Is it okay to be mixing a ration balancer with a regular feed?

[KiraSophia]

I have my QH gelding, who previously foundered, in a large dry lot with hay and a ration balancer to substitute grass (Empower Balance). He’s been on it for a long time with no issues until this spring, when he dropped a lot of weight. There are no health issues that we can find, he’s properly wormed and his teeth are good. He galavants around a lot more now that he’s in a bigger dry lot, so that might be part of it.

I planned to switch him over to Nutrena Safe Choice Special Care, which he was on in the past, but I don’t want to take away the grass-replacing benefits of the ration balancer, so I haven’t fully transitioned him yet. Right now he’s at half and half with a couple of extra flakes of hay and he’s gained a little back. What would you do at this point? Switch him over entirely?

[Simkie]

A ration balancer isn’t a grass replacement…it’s more like a multi vitamin with some protein, for easy keepers that don’t need a lot of calories.

What exactly do you think you’re gaining by feeding the ration balancer? Perhaps there’s another product that would fill that niche.

Regarding his weight, I’d feed the SafeChoice at the amount he needs to gain what he lost. As long as you’re feeding the minimum amount on the label, he’s getting the vitamins and minerals he’ll be missing from the ration balancer.

[RedHorses]

That’s what ration balancers are for. If you aren’t feeding the minimum recommended amount of a regular feed the ration balancer will fill in the rest of the vitamins and minerals without the extra calories.

Since your horse is gaining weight I would leave things as is until he reaches the desired weight, then cut back on the hard feed first before reducing his hay.

[Flash44]

How much hay are you feeding him? I go with the all-you-can-eat hay plan and then add hard feed if needed.

[JB]

[QUOTE=KiraSophia;8202776]
I have my QH gelding, who previously foundered, [/QUOTE]
What was the cause of the founder, if known, or even suspected?

in a large dry lot with hay and a ration balancer to substitute grass (Empower Balance).

I’m assuming you don’t actually mean “the Balance is a substitute for grass”, but that the Balance is the one designed for a grass/grass hay diet

How much hay?

He’s been on it for a long time with no issues until this spring, when he dropped a lot of weight. There are no health issues that we can find, he’s properly wormed and his teeth are good. He galavants around a lot more now that he’s in a bigger dry lot, so that might be part of it.

Can you lay out what he’s been dewormed with, and when, in the last 12 months? “Properly dewormed” means a lot of things to many people, some of which end up being “didn’t use anything effective for anything”

I planned to switch him over to Nutrena Safe Choice Special Care, which he was on in the past, but I don’t want to take away the grass-replacing benefits of the ration balancer, so I haven’t fully transitioned him yet.

Ok, so my assumption up top wasn’t right - I hadn’t read all the way yet. Ration balances don’t replace grass. At all. Not any more than any fortified feed does. There are 2 types of RBs: those aimed at horses eating an all/mostly legume diet (ie alfalfa), and those aimed at eating an all/mostly grass diet (whether fresh grass, or grass hay). It’s not even that, it’s really about how much protein is in the forage they are eating, so you MIGHT actually need the alfalfa-centric RB for grass hay that’s 18% protein. The difference is largely in how much protein and lysine is being supplied, as grasses tend to be on the lower side, while legumes are not

Right now he’s at half and half with a couple of extra flakes of hay and he’s gained a little back. What would you do at this point? Switch him over entirely?

My answer will entirely depend on his reason for foundering. You may have an IR horse who is the smaller population of those who lose weight and become “hard keepers”. If that’s the case, the SC is not appropriate for him IMHO.

I also would want to know how much hay he’s eating, and whether it’s tested low NSC, or it’s being soaked.

There are much better hard feed alternatives than SC SC for a metabolic horse.

[HenryisBlaisin]

I agree with JB about the Nutrena not being the best feed. Personally, I’m a fan of Triple Crown Senior or Lite for horses with NSC issues.

Assuming the horse is NOT IR or Cushings and does not have another underlying issue, as long as you switch over to the minimum recommended amount of concentrated feed, you should not need the ration balancer. RB’s do NOT replace forage, though some are formulated to supplement certain KINDS if forage. If a horse is getting the minimum amount of a concentrated feed (usually around 6 pounds/day but that varies by specific feed), they should be getting everything the need from that and their hay and not need the RB. Feeds need to be measured by weight, not volume, until you know the dry measurements that equal the correct number of pounds.

How much hay is your horse getting per day? If he needs weight, he needs to be getting at least 20 pounds, weighed dry. If there are metabolic concerns and testing/buying low NSC tested hay (Timothy is generally a lower NSC hay than orchard or fescue, but again, you need it tested to know for sure), it can be soaked to remove sugars, but wet weight should not be counted as the daily total.

[Foxtrot_s]

Ration balancer up here is formulated with the hay around here in mind. I was advised by the feed manufacturer to add 2# per day to her regular ration to make up the selenium deficiencies in the washed out soils here, and she is on a high fat pellet (designed more for working dressage type horses, rather than event types, that gives calories without zoom.) She does well on it.
When I can find it she gets second cut grass hay with a dash of alfalfa.

[JB]

I would not be adding 2lb of a ration balancer, to a “regular ration” (I assume you mean a regular feed?) for the purpose of adding Se. That’s sort of silly. Add Se!

But even before that, go a blood test. I’m in a deficient area too, but the horses are not deficient. Test Vit E too - if that’s low, add that first, then re-test both in a few months. Without enough E, it doesn’t matter how much Se you add.

[SendenHorse]

Vitamin E is usually low when horses aren’t on green grass…

I agree with JB- test both Se and E and re-test in perscribed intervals working with a vet.

RBs are for horses NOT getting ANY grain to provide mineals/vitamins.

[JB]

To be fair, you can add a RB, even a partial dose, if the horse is getting a partial dose of a regular fortified grain LIke - if he’s getting 3lb of TC Sr (which is too little) then he could get 1/2 lb of TC 30

[Foxtrot_s]

We have a very good equine nutritionist at our feed store, and he set me up with the 2#. I can only guess that RB’s vary from product to product. He knows the region and I do not question his advice.

[JB]

I’m only questioning why one would add 2lb of a RB “to make up the selenium deficiencies”, when

• it’s easier and cheaper to add just selenium (and way cheaper to add just Vit E to see if that pulls up any Se level)
• no bloodwork was done to see if the horse even needed Se
• no bloodwork was done to see if the horse is low in E which can cause low Se
• there are many other nutrients in ration balancers that shouldn’t be doubled up on when feeding a regular fortified feed, such as iron, and that you are paying for and likely don’t remotely need.

[quietann]

We just went the other way a few months ago with my mare, switching her from about 3 pounds of Poulin Carb Safe to 3/4 pound of Poulin MVP Supplement, which is basically a ration balancer. She had become rather fat in the early spring, and needed to have her hay ration cut. To keep as much hay as possible in her diet, we started with getting the calories in her feed down. I’ve been very happy with the results.

Poulin actually recommends MVP for horses that are not getting enough vitamins and minerals from their regular feed because of needing a reduced portion, and for unfortified grains like straight oats. So this is basically what the OP would be doing if she adds a RB to her horse’s feed.

I’m not sure whether this is true, but I have heard MANY times that the feed companies’ recommended minimum amounts are higher than most horses actually need… or, a different version of the same thing, assume that the horse is not getting a lot of hay.

[Melyni]

Ration Balancers are designed to fed with mostly if not entirely hay. SO I would suggest trying that first. Add a suitable Ration balancer to your hay and avoid the commercial grain entirely.
As for which ration balancer is suitable, you would need to ask a local nutritionist and give them an analysis of the hay you are feeding so that they can check to make sure that all the mineral levels are correct.

It’s not an easy question to answer with a good bit more info, the top of which would be an analysis of the hay and a diagnosis of the cause of the laminitis.
Yours
MW

[Melyni]

dding a ration balancer to grain

Ration Balancers are designed to fed with mostly if not entirely hay. SO I would suggest trying that first. Add a suitable Ration balancer to your hay and avoid the commercial grain entirely.
As for which ration balancer is suitable, you would need to ask a local nutritionist and give them an analysis of the hay you are feeding so that they can check to make sure that all the mineral levels are correct.

It’s not an easy question to answer without a good bit more info, the top of which would be an analysis of the hay and a diagnosis of the cause of the laminitis.

Then it might be possible to come up with a good ration for your horse.

Yours
MW

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=JB;8203878]
To be fair, you can add a RB, even a partial dose, if the horse is getting a partial dose of a regular fortified grain LIke - if he’s getting 3lb of TC Sr (which is too little) then he could get 1/2 lb of TC 30[/QUOTE]

I’ve had great results adding 2 lbs a day of TC 30 to skinny tbs that need more topline, and are already on TC Senior. I find that once they start to gain weight, they get a little belly fat, meaning the overall weight is better, but they still lack topline. I don’t want to send them back to the track “fat,” so I decrease the TC Senior from 9 - 12 lbs a day to 6-9 lbs a day and add some TC 30, which seems to really beef up the topline without the horse becoming too overly fat to go back to galloping. BUT it’s only the racehorses that I do this with.

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8204158]
I’ve had great results adding 2 lbs a day of TC 30 to skinny tbs that need more topline, and are already on TC Senior. I find that once they start to gain weight, they get a little belly fat, meaning the overall weight is better, but they still lack topline. I don’t want to send them back to the track “fat,” so I decrease the TC Senior from 9 - 12 lbs a day to 6-9 lbs a day and add some TC 30, which seems to really beef up the topline without the horse becoming too overly fat to go back to galloping. BUT it’s only the racehorses that I do this with.[/QUOTE]

I do almost exactly the same thing with the skinny ones who need both calories and muscle.

[CindyCRNA]

Bumping this back up as I have a calorie burning Holsteiner who has moved up to Novice in eventing. We have come out of a horribly dry summer, he lost weight and topline. I went out and bought 50 bales of alfalfa and have been supplementing 2-4 flakes a day. My barn I am currently at feeds a high sugar Purina feed. We are changing barns who feeds Nutrena so I bought a bag of Fuel (Nutrena’s equivalent to Purina Ultium) and my TB licks his bowel (he was on Ultium for years) but my Holsteiner turned his nose up at it. Some horses don’t like that high fat mouth feel.

He has benefited from the alfalfa greatly, gaining weight and muscle, and we will keep feeding it . I was thinking of adding something like TC 30 to his evening mash. I will see if he finds the Nutrena Perform palatable as it is 9% fat vs 13% fat for the Fuel. The Perfrom is 14% protein vs the Feul which is 12% which is also better.

So here is what a day would look like:

6-8 flakes brome mix
6 pounds a day of Perform (hopefully he will eat that)
1/2 coffee can beet pulp
1 coffee can alfalfa cubes
1/4 cup Cocosoya (oil supplement)
2 pounds TC 30
2-4 (heavy) flakes alfalfa (2 flakes more than likely over the winter, 4 flakes when cross country schooling starts)

I’m sorry, I’m rambling. I want to add TC 30 to bump up the protein on a 17 hand 1350 pound Holsteiner in a lot of work. Anyone else add a high protein ration balancer to bump up the protein in a diet of a horse in hard work that is already getting grain? I could up the alfalfa but I get gravely concerned that it will still be available come Feb so I need a plan “B”

[Simkie]

@CindyCRNA

6-8 flakes brome mix
6 pounds a day of Perform (hopefully he will eat that)
1/2 coffee can beet pulp
1 coffee can alfalfa cubes
1/4 cup Cocosoya (oil supplement)
2 pounds TC 30
2-4 (heavy) flakes alfalfa (2 flakes more than likely over the winter, 4 flakes when cross country schooling starts)

What are the feeding instructions on the Perform? If six pounds is a full ration for a horse this size, then no, don’t add a ration balancer. You’d be overdoing the vitamins and minerals…ration balancers aren’t just protein. They also have a full compliment of supplemental nutrition.

If you’re at the full ration of Perform, something like triamino or nutramino or Purina super sport would be a better option.

You might like signing up for a month of FeedXL, so you can play around with all these parts and see what that does to the whole diet :yes:

[CindyCRNA]

@Simkie

What are the feeding instructions on the Perform? If six pounds is a full ration for a horse this size, then no, don’t add a ration balancer. You’d be overdoing the vitamins and minerals…ration balancers aren’t just protein. They also have a full compliment of supplemental nutrition.

If you’re at the full ration of Perform, something like triamino or nutramino or Purina super sport would be a better option.

You might like signing up for a month of FeedXL, so you can play around with all these parts and see what that does to the whole diet :yes:

Hum, I had forgotten about SuperSport. I have heard good things about it.