Is my young horse unsound or just weak??

[twinmommy]

The hoof balance x-rays are a great idea! I am definitely going to do that, thanks for the suggestion. I really don’t want to have to shoe him all around, because he will have to go on individual turnout but if I have to I will. Most barns in my area won’t allow horses with hind shoes to be turned out with other horses. I’m thinking I will do the hoof balance x-rays, and try working him outside for now, where he isn’t wearing down his toes and hopefully with a bunch of hacking and hillwork he will strengthen. If he’s still having issues I will definitely call in a vet. I’ll take pictures of his hind hooves today and post them here to see what everyone thinks of them.

How does a vet diagnose weak stifles? Just watching them move or is there some other diagnostic done?

He doesn’t cross-canter when he is cantering on a straight line, ie. outside on a trail or in the paddock. He has trouble picking up the correct lead in the arena when he is bending, so it could just be a balance and coordination issue. A lot of Haflingers have trouble with the canter when they are young. He hasn’t had a growth spurt. He is the same height he was last Spring. I’m hoping he stays pony-sized. He is 14. 1 1/2 right now.

[AMackechnie]

@twinmommy

How does a vet diagnose weak stifles? Just watching them move or is there some other diagnostic done?

I had a vet with a very good eye, who took into account the movement of the horse naturally and in work. He palpated the area and took the entire hind end into consideration for his diagnosis as well. In the case of the horse I was dealing with, it was determined the gonitis and osteoarthritis was something this horse had for quite some time but putting him to work after years off brought it to the forefront.

Sometimes a horse will drag the leg, drop the hip and be reluctant to canter. Circles and asking the horse to engage can aggravate the condition.

Your doing all the right things to determine if this might be an issue. In the case of the horse we had here at the farm, the horse rested his left hind leg after any work. It was consistent and noticeable and not just a relaxed horse.

[Hilary]

He is gorgeous. Here’s my 2 cents from knowing my Haflinger. He drags his toes, he’s not lame. But he is LAZY, and as a Haffie he was not bred to canter. It’s hard for him. Even a taller leggier guy like yours does not have the same hind end that a TB has.

If he is only 4 and his previous life was trotting in harness he probably doesn’t have a lot of practicing in the canter, nor the back and hind end strength to overcome the conformation that makes it hard. The pole work is great for strengthening his hind end, and when you can go outside, I would recommend trail riding over hill and dale and canter a lot. This goes for any young horse - let them get strong and forward outdoors while they learn to carry you.

My pony does not canter well at all and I know it’s because for the first 14 years of his life he wasn’t supposed to do it in harness or under saddle. Then along comes me and my big ideas about combined driving, and he’s learning all kinds of stuff but cantering is just hard for him.

Your guy is much more athletic than Frodo to start with so I would work him and if he is sore, it will show up. If he is weak, it will get better.

[4horses]

I’m not seeing much at the trot. The canter to walk transition looked not quite right. He seemed to drag his toes when he started walking. I’m going to guess either weak stifles which may correct itself as he gets fitter or negative plantar angles in his hind feet.

One of my horses cross canters consistently in both directions. The vets could not diagnose her. They suggested a bone scan. If you could post video of the cross cantering, that may be helpful.

[merrygoround]

On the longe he appears to be just not moving forward. Under saddle he did much better in a strong rising trot. When he hangs his head down, as he does, lift your chest and open your shoulders, and add leg. At the walk you do follow well with your hips, perhaps you need to add a little more leg so he moves on.
It is normal for a horse to be stiffer to one side than the other, but it’s something that needs to be addressed early in their life when they are more supple, and have the ability to stretch out their short side more easily.

You have a PM

[no.stirrups]

To me, he looks a bit reluctant on the right hind. If he was mine I’d amp up the groundwork and put a bell boot on the right hind foot to make him a little more aware of it. I might alternate sessions over ground poles or cavaletti with sessions using a Pro-Core https://thesaddletree.com/other-products/ with sessions using side reins, and work up to using them in various combinations. I would continue work under saddle but leave off cantering until he is stronger.

I agree that I don’t trust vets for this type of subtle lameness. With the above program he will either get better or he will get worse, which isn’t ideal but the alternative is pretty much random diagnostics which is expensive, time consuming, and often fruitless.

Just to add to the many things you could look into, the last horse I worked with who started cross cantering when she was fit and strong turned out to be developing side bones in her front feet. The issue could really be almost anywhere in his body if it isn’t due to lack of fitness.

[Painteddraft]

I had a draft mare with a build similar to your haflinger who came from a driving background. She took looked a lot like what I see your horse doing. Many driving horses, especially those that have been driving in a breastcollar, learn to pull with their front end and not use their hind end. mine liked to lean on her bit while driving. Combine that with the draft attitude of less work and more eating is better it can be a challenge.

Some things that I found that help my mare was:
lots and lots of transition - I attended several sally swift clinics - she had us doing lots of transitions like 4 strides walk, 4 strides trot - repeat - with rider moving between sitting, posting and half seat. for each transition you were asking them to push off with their hind end. We started off doing about 1/2 the ring doing transitions than several of a big forward walk than a halt break and repeat - it took us a while to build up to doing several times around the ring in 4 walk/4 trot transition. If they are really working into the transition, its a lot of work on their hind end. To keep a happy attitude and not get them sore - less can be better. For my mare, this helped her figure out that she should not lean on the bit.

with my mare, warm ups were very important - doing a 30+ minute warm up really was better for her, than a serious work session of 20 to 30 minutes followed by a long cool down. a friend of mine suggested this. her feeling was a good warm up really got to the inner muscles and with a draft horse having such thicker muscles designed for pulling a longer warm-up was needed.This did really help stretch out her muscles and get her ready for working. lots of times I would put her on a lunge line or round pen her asking for a canter very early - honestly it looked ugly for the first couple of rounds - you could watch it change as she warmed up.

Long linings was another thing I picked up - this allowed us to do transition work without a rider and not have the shortness of the lunge line or round pen.

we added backing to our daily routine. This was done just with a halter or under saddle without a rider. the intent was to be able to back a straight line softly - we started out doing about 5 strides backward - boy were they initially ugly - we did this daily for almost a year - by the end she was much stronger in the hind and backed softly for quite a distance - we even worked on backing softly in hand on a circle.

not sure if any of this will work for you -

c

[twinmommy]

@no.stirrups

To me, he looks a bit reluctant on the right hind. If he was mine I’d amp up the groundwork and put a bell boot on the right hind foot to make him a little more aware of it. I might alternate sessions over ground poles or cavaletti with sessions using a Pro-Core https://thesaddletree.com/other-products/ with sessions using side reins, and work up to using them in various combinations. I would continue work under saddle but leave off cantering until he is stronger.

Thank you! I’ve never heard of putting a bell boot on to make a horse more aware of a leg. Interested to try it!! I do poles and cavaletti in hand with him regularly. I’m thinking I’ll try lungeing him in the Vienna reins on the weekend and really ask him to go forward in trot. I have never heard of the Pro-Core Trainer before. I just checked out the Website. Have you tried it and found that it helps?

Edited to Add: Your observation about the right hind makes sense. He cross-canters on the left lead, not the right, so I am thinking it may be the right hind that is reluctant to engage, because he has trouble striking off in the canter with the right hind.

[no.stirrups]

@twinmommy

I have never heard of the Pro-Core Trainer before. I just checked out the Website. Have you tried it and found that it helps?

I used it on my horse when he was coming back from a long lay-off due to injury. He had been very evenly muscled prior to his injury, but had developed crookedness (and obviously lots of weakness) on stall rest. I consider the Pro-Core a key part of his rehab. It’s also great for building strength in general and is an asset to people with weak groundwork skills (not that this seems to apply to you!) who are not skilled at making sure the horse is consistently engaging his core and hind end. I’ve found lots of applications!

You’ll probably see an instant change in your horse’s posture and way of moving when you put it on. Either he will start to move evenly and with more engagement, or if there actually is something wrong with him the unevenness will become more pronounced.

[twinmommy]

Painteddraft - thank you so much! I feel like there are benefits to buying a horse that has a driving background, and there are challenges. My guy is very good on roads and with all kinds of traffic! When we go for a hack, he often leads the older horses past the “scary” stuff. My guy was actually only in driving training for about 7 weeks. He is very light in the contact thankfully, but yes, getting him to use his hind end is a challenge.

Regarding the warm-up, like you I have noticed that if I can get him into canter relatively quickly in the ride, then his trot is better. The challenge is getting him on the correct lead!! Someone suggested I post video of him cross-cantering, so here it is!

Please keep in mind that this was his first ride in the outdoor ring ever, it was chilly and very windy, there was a dog barking in one of the cars at the barn, and his buddies were galloping around in the paddock behind the camera. He only seems to cross-canter on the left lead.

https://youtu.be/Ok0sSbjtIB0

[alibi_18]

I’ve watched all the videos and pictures.
So compared to the carriage video, your horse is lame.

To me, your horse is kinda « hopping » in the back which suggest either stiffle or SI problems.

I also think that he doesn’t seem to land properly his foot down; touching toes first in the back.

Is his right hip lower than the left one?

And from the picture of the right hing foot, I would seek advice from a new farrier. This is not a sound looking hoof at all.
So hind hoofs X-rays would be something I’d consider.
Shoes should be considered as well.

So the fact that he’s cross firing, not wanting to canter on the left lead behind, seems logical. He doesn’t want to put much weight on it.

[twinmommy]

alibi_18 - thank you for your input. There is definitely some flaring on the outside of the Right Hind hoof (and in the Left Hind as well, but to a lesser extent). That is new. The toe dragging is new, the cross-cantering is new. I made some calls today about hoof balancing x-rays and I did send the pictures to my farrier, told him about the toe dragging and asked him what he thought. He told me to keep an eye on it, and said it will be fine until his next trim on May 15, and will trim up OK, so he doesn’t seem to think it’s a big deal.

The right hip is actually slightly higher than the left hip. The difference is very slight.

I will start at the bottom, with the hooves, and see if it makes a difference, and if it doesn’t, I’ll have a full lameness exam done. Possibly the SI and stifle are symptoms, but the cause is poorly balanced hooves.

Any thoughts about trying him on Bute for a few days to see if that helps??

[S1969]

@twinmommy

Any thoughts about trying him on Bute for a few days to see if that helps??

I might try that; the lameness is so subtle that a bute trial may alleviate it enough to notice – if you do, definitely video tape for your vet and/or the lameness folks here.

[alibi_18]

@twinmommy

alibi_18 - thank you for your input. There is definitely some flaring on the outside of the Right Hind hoof (and in the Left Hind as well, but to a lesser extent). That is new. The toe dragging is new, the cross-cantering is new. I made some calls today about hoof balancing x-rays and I did send the pictures to my farrier, told him about the toe dragging and asked him what he thought. He told me to keep an eye on it, and said it will be fine until his next trim on May 15, and will trim up OK, so he doesn’t seem to think it’s a big deal.

And that is exactly why I suggested a new farrier.

I’m sorry but the Right Hind is definitively Not good looking, like at all. It’s not just « some » flaring… it’s a lot of it and, from the side view picture, it’s shape/angle is wrong. And I believe it might be the source of his funky stepping, especially when there is someone sitting on top adding pressure.
This and add the fact that his hooves are worn down, adding heels sensitivity, it wouldn’t be surprising that he is landing a bit toe first.

May 15 is in 3 weeks… When was he last trimmed?

It should never look like that this early after being trimmed.

It should actually never look like that between trims because it means you’ve waited too long.

If your horse naturally wears down his hooves with imbalances, I think he should have shoes on.

The right hip is actually slightly higher than the left hip. The difference is very slight.

This will affect the way his hooves grow and are worn down. You might want a farrier to trim or adjust the shoes more often to prevent any imbalances.

I will start at the bottom, with the hooves, and see if it makes a difference, and if it doesn’t, I’ll have a full lameness exam done. Possibly the SI and stifle are symptoms, but the cause is poorly balanced hooves.

So a new farrier should look at these feet.

Any thoughts about trying him on Bute for a few days to see if that helps??

Yes.

And I would do a complete week off from his back as well and see if there is a difference once you can back on top.

[Blondie22]

I think he is just adorable and seems like a well mannered dude.

I would just keep riding him. He doesn’t look lame at all - maybe a little weaker on the left hind than right but I wouldn’t think anything of it at this point in his training. If he’s hurting, you’re going to know shortly if you keep working him. As someone else said, you could try him on bute for a few days and see if anything changes.

You could drive yourself nuts trying to find and fix a problem that doesn’t exist. Maybe that’s just him!

[twinmommy]

@alibi_18

May 15 is in 3 weeks… When was he last trimmed?

And I would do a complete week off from his back as well and see if there is a difference once you can back on top.

Thanks again for your input, alibi_18

He was trimmed on April 1, and the pics were taken on Wed, so they are at 3 weeks and 2 days post-trim. I actually called another farrier today and he is coming on Monday, which will be at 4 weeks. The vet is also coming to take x-rays of his hooves. I’m really curious to see what they find.

I gave him a full week off from any work in March after he started x-cantering. It doesn’t seem to have made a difference.

[twinmommy]

@Blondie22

I think he is just adorable and seems like a well mannered dude.

You could drive yourself nuts trying to find and fix a problem that doesn’t exist. Maybe that’s just him!

Thank you for the compliment! He is really fun! I even taught him to do some tricks, like smiling and bowing! He loves clicker training!

I know what you mean, I think I am a bit paranoid because of previous experiences I’ve had with horses who ended up having major pre-existing physical issues that were very difficult to diagnose. And he didn’t have a PPE done. I would do the hoof balancing x-rays anyways. No hoof, no horse!!

[alibi_18]

@Blondie22

I would just keep riding him. He doesn’t look lame at all - maybe a little weaker on the left hind than right but I wouldn’t think anything of it at this point in his training. If he’s hurting, you’re going to know shortly if you keep working him. As someone else said, you could try him on bute for a few days and see if anything changes.

You could drive yourself nuts trying to find and fix a problem that doesn’t exist. Maybe that’s just him!

The horse has been easy to train WTC since the beginning. The cross firing happened suddenly, only to the left, and has only increased ever since, from February up to now, despite some time off in March.

Cross firing can be a training issue, but since the problem is also seen on the lunge line and only on one side, we can doubt it is.
But maybe a new trainer is in order since the OP haven’t been able to fix the problem and only exacerbate it.

Cross firing is also not just a fitness issue, especially if unilateral.
Cross firing isn’t an « easy and comfortable » gait for horses so they won’t really cross fire to get away with work.

Since this horse isn’t learning flying changes, counter canter and does cross fire on the lunge line, there is clearly something wrong.
That’s not him.
That’s not any horse.

Your « ride it ‘til you break it » advice is baffling.

The OP could keep riding and riding as much as she wants (which she did so far without much success) but chances are, it will only worsen the problem.

If the horse is in pain and kept in training, how do you think it will react?
More problems will begin to emerge as well… Reluctance to work, bad behaviors, sourness, etc. and more pain. Some horse are, unfortunately, really stoic.

Something needs to be changed to fix the abnormal cross firing issue. Either through better training or through a vet exam.
The OP is fortunately on the right track.

[twinmommy]

@alibi_18

Cross firing can be a training issue, but since the problem is also seen on the lunge line and only on one side, we can doubt it is.
But maybe a new trainer is in order since the OP haven’t been able to fix the problem and only exacerbate it.

Your « ride it ‘til you break it » advice is baffling.

The OP could keep riding and riding as much as she wants (which she did so far without much success) but chances are, it will only worsen the problem.

If the horse is in pain and kept in training, how do you think it will react?
More problems will begin to emerge as well… Reluctance to work, bad behaviors, sourness, etc. and more pain. Some horse are, unfortunately, really stoic.

Something needs to be changed to fix the abnormal cross firing issue. Either through better training or through a vet exam.
The OP is fortunately on the right track.

Believe me, I am not the person who rides the horse until they break down. And I definitely don’t “ride and ride as much as I want”. I ride the horse to try to build him up physically, it’s not about what I want to do each day. I generally ride him 3x a week (as I said before), never on consecutive days, for maximum 30 minutes (10 of which are a walk warm-up). Before I get on, I hand walk him for 5-10 minutes, sometimes over raised poles to get his hind end engaged. I back him up in hand. I do stretches with him every day, regardless of whether he has been worked. I don’t canter him every time I ride, or every time I lunge/long line. And when I do ask for canter, I may only canter once in each direction and be done.

On his days off, I hand-walk him around the area, on the roads, trails, etc. or I do clicker training with him, or I just play with him in the arena. I am all about keeping my horse happy and willing. I don’t do all of this for me, although of course I enjoy spending time with my horse. If he is sore, I will try to find out why, and give him some time off. I don’t know for sure if that’s the case yet.

[IPEsq]

I’d like to see video of the good lead. I’m still leaning more to left hind because of the dropped hip and more toe dragging and he can’t reach forward and under with it. The hop like hind end is also concerning. Though my opinion is also influenced by what I saw at trot.

I wonder instead of trying to set up the canter with haunches in if shoulder fore would make a difference. That would bring more weight to the left hind. Might be too difficult with where he is in training and knowledge of canter cues.