He looks a little more lame outside to me. I’d encourage xrays on all 4 feet. Mine cross cantered and it was compensation from DDFT up front. I would also have a good vet look at his SI. (broken record, I know)
He is just darling though- very cute!
Ask and ye shall receive!! Lol! This was prior to the 4 failed attempts I showed in an earlier post. He was a bit too speedy for my liking at first, although I will take that energy!!
Actually, this clip is the longest I have ever cantered him. When we started, he couldn’t canter a full 20-metre circle, on the lunge or under saddle. I would just ask for maybe 6 strides of canter at first, building to all the way down the long side, etc.
I have been trying different things to set him up for the left lead canter. I actually have more luck asking from a walk on a straight line than from the trot, not ideal but I’ll take it! I have tried the usual stuff - asking while spiralling out at trot, leg yield prior to asking. I have tried moving his haunches to the inside prior to the depart. I’ve tried in different parts of the arena. I feel like most times when I ask he takes 1 stride to counter-bend and then departs in cross-canter. I haven’t tried setting him up in shoulder fore actually, I will try that!
I am having hoof x-rays done on Monday and possibly a lameness work-up. The new farrier is coming Monday as well. I will let you know how it goes! I have realized that he’s wearing down the outside of all 4 feet more than the inside, especially the hinds.
I rode him today in the arena (first time in 9 days, since I noticed he was wearing down his toes). I tried your suggestion of putting a bell boot on his right hind (can’t hurt right?) and he actually picked up the left lead canter the first time I asked. We only cantered the one time to the left today. Maybe the bell boot helped?
Yesterday, I fashioned my own pseudo-“Pro-Core Trainer” from a saddle pad and some stable bandages, and lunged him with running reins. I really think it helped!! He seemed more engaged in trot for sure. I didn’t try cantering him. I only lunged him for about 15 minutes, but I could tell he was tired at the end. I think he was working harder than he usually does. I wish I had video but forgot to bring my tripod to the barn.
Thanks so much for the suggestions! I can’t wait to try it again and video tape this time!
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My personal opinion, and I am not a vet, so I would still recommend at least flexions to eliminate any health issues…
you are doing a great job with him and just need to be patient. a horse does not get strong in 4 weeks… proper dressage training takes years… he was driven before and that did not look like a lot of engagement from behind, so that did not help your riding much… continue what you are doing if the flexions are ok… and IMO he is not lame, just lacking engagement from behind… Give him a chance before you turn him into a pasture pet…
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Thank you! Tomorrow I am getting his feet checked out and balanced properly, and have a vet do a PPE (Post-Purchase Exam in this case). I’ll be away for 3 weeks in May, so he will have some time off anyway. The plan after that has always been just to hack him through the forest and on trails until Winter when we’ll be once again stuck in the indoor. I wanted to at least help him figure out his balance in trot under a rider.
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OP how did it go? Hoping for something absolutely easy for you!!
Well the vet had an emergency and couldn’t make it yesterday. I rescheduled for May 9. Disappointing, but not much I can do.
The new farrier came and trimmed his hooves. He said that he has great feet, and the angles look good. He did say that he was landing on the inside of his hind hooves slightly, which is likely why he had a bit of a flare on the hind hooves. He was very complimentary about my gelding. So that was nice to hear.
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Someone who is a much better driver than me once told me he reckoned that from the horse’s perspective, he’s pushing the load and not pulling. So, i think you’re correct that part of the problem is the way he learned to use his body for driving. The easiest way to see it is to look at still shots from a pulling competition. The horse throws himself forward into the collar & harness. His hind end generates immense power, to be sure. But the power is created when by the horse stretching low and long. Out and over himself rather than coming up under like a well-developed dressage horse.
To feel it in your own body, try pushing the wall standing at arms length from it and your body at a 90 degree angle go the floor. You don’t get much power. Step your legs back enough that your body is about 45 degrees to the floor. You get a lot more power! The only time I see driving horses use their hindbrain end in the same way as a riding horse it’s to push into the britching to back the vehicle or hold it off coming down an incline. Even then, they drop their hind end more like a roping horse than engage up and under. I also think that draft horses tend to have slightly different length ratios and angles of leg bones from riding horses. That doesn’t help.
He sure does look off to me. I saw head bobs at the trot on the lunge line. I don’t have the expertise that posters like Alibi_18 and Scribbler do to be able to parse it down to individual hocks, etc. He just looks really stiff and sore across his SI and stifle.
I went back and watched the driving video and looked at the pictures of his feet. The man driving looks Amish. (And to be blunt, Amish are about the only ones that will get a horse going along that quietly that fast.) You may have some issues created by Amish horsecare to contend with.
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What kind of shoes was he wearing when you bought him? Did it look like a gritty substance was applied to the bottoms? If so, that’s Drill Tek. It’s primary use is to reinforce the drill tips used on oil rigs. It’s sometimes used to make shoes last longer when the horse is going on pavement a lot and provide a little grip. It works but it adds to the concussive forces on the hoof.
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Amish do their own shoeing. They don’t ride much at all and when they do it’s to get from point A to point B. They don’t really get the demands sport use places on the horse’s body. They shoe for farm work and driving. It’s functional and basic. They don’t spend a lot of time shaping the foot or worrying about hoof health beyond the foot staying strong enough to hold a shoe.
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It’s going to take a lot of time and a skilled farrier to transform the big platter feet most driving drafts have into strong feet shaped correctly for dressage. Unfortunately, a lot of draft bloodlines in the US have crappy feet. When I had my Belgian team up for sale the manager of the living museum farm run by the county looked at them and was desperately scrambling to get funds approved to buy them. Their Percheron team had terrible feet to the point that they couldn’t keep them shod to use them for farming demonstrations. It wasn’t a question of overwork. They weren’t asking for much at all out of those horses. They just had terrible, crumbly, thin walled, weak feet.
I personally woulldn’y have left him barefoot. And I wouldn’t recommend allowing a farrier to trim too much too fast. His feet are holding up a lot of pony. Make sure the process is slow enough to allow his body plenty of time to adjust and compensate for the changes in kenetics. Alibi_18 hit the (shoe) nail on the head when she said that he needs shoes to halt the excessive wear to his toes. He just needs the support provided by shoes for a while.
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I only briefly looked at the vids, but as a fjord owner I concur with Hilary, mostly what I see is a breed of horse that finds it harder to canter than trot, and even harder to do just about ANYTHING while carrying themselves. If you add to it being trained Amish style, he probably is used to using his front end to pull (or push) the load along with his chest, so you have a pony who is built to travel downhill, just bringing his hind end along for the ride, is happiest traveling downhill… and all his former training has doubled down on what he is best at… well, you have a lot of work to do to give him the tools to help overcome nature, and undo nurture.
But if you get a haffie (or as I saw a fb post autocorrect the other day: half a linger) or a fjord, the extra work is part of the price you pay for having that much fun.
I got my fjord as an unstarted 3.5 year old in early 2016 and spent time teaching him the rules of being a civilized pony before acquainting him with his future job(s) - driving pony, dressage pony and trail riding pony, with a dash of jump whatever I point you at on the trail pony. About the first 6 months of riding were just WTC, working on basic balance with his head where ever god left it and gaits in his comfy range without too much change in speed asked… because that was about as far as his physical ability took him at that time! There was a ton of potential in his gaits, but not the strength to do much about it and not the emotional maturity either we just did a whole lot of trail riding to be honest. And all I said during 2016 is “Fjord. Not a cantering breed” … and don’t get me wrong he had a nice comfy canter and he never rushed or broke… never softened his back once either, LOL
2017 was the year of Learning That Contact is NOT Optional because by god he had an opinion about that. I had a running joke about him petitioning the FEI for the Fjord Case for Dressage (it involved all references or ideals about head on a vertical plane be replaced with horizontal). After about 6 months of patiently asking, waiting to reward him for the attempt, doing all the things that had worked on so many horses before himm… I gave up and became the Human Side Rein and locked my hands at my side, channeling my 1970s western pleasure trainer persona. Eventually (just before my arms dropped off) he gave in and lo and behold, there was a reward. He still asked about 6,670 times if it was required though… We were still no where NEAR that place in the canter. He was a fjord banana. Then to add insult to injury, in 2017 we added flat tire (weak/loose) stifles to the mix, and that was perplexing because he was only fitter and more balanced so why now? But truthfully this was probably the first time he was (barely) using his hind end instead of dragging it along for the ride, and because of that, we were now feeling the impact of an unfit, unengaged hind end.
But what really really REALLY made the difference in the quality of his gaits was when I sent him off to be trained as a driving horse in the winter of '17-18. Yes, some horses just do the pulling with their front ends, but if the horse is well trained and you know how to drive them like a performance horse and not a “go from point A to point B” horse, that is not the case. He came back from that training with a whole 'nuther level of balance and strength in all gaits, but most especially the canter which he hadn’t done in 3 months!
And finally after a fall and winter of building up fitness for CDEs, I finally noticed that flat tire stifles were a thing of the past. But I have to be honest, I was genuinely shocked at how much fitter and stronger, and how much longer it took to get past that stage as compared to many other breeds I have worked on before, so this may be part of the fjord/haffie build/way of going issue. Also when we hit the competition season, I did a lot less riding, so it was a pleasant surprise (again) how much stronger he was when I started riding regularly again in April, and he can carry himself much more in front of my leg right from the start of the ride than he could last fall before we switched to driving for the season.
So if you have access to someone who competes in CDEs (and therefore driven dressage) it may be worth seeking them out, it may help you more than you think!
Don’t get me wrong, we do have plenty of level/pulling along moments like this
But when your horse carries himself like this and drags your fat ass around, he develops such beautiful, strong gaits:
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I don’t see any glaringly obvious lameness. And honestly I kind of am of the opinion that you can convince yourself almost any horse looks slightly off if you look hard enough.
I have always wondered about the whole “toe dragging” thing though. I feel like arena ground can make a difference in some cases. I get paranoid watching videos of my guy because it looks like he has little clouds of dirt following him even though he looks like he is moving nicely and forward to me, but it looks like that with pretty much all the horses there besides the pranciest ones. I think it clings to the foot a bit and follows.
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Just watched the video, he really just looks like he has some weakness on one side, my friend’s horse liked to cross canter like that going one way and as he got stronger he started actually getting the correct lead in the hind end. And in this video, the fact that he picks it up but looks like he is kind of running off balance makes me think it is just lack of strength even more. Of course getting the vet to check NEVER hurts and can give you peace of mind, but my 2 cents. Let us know what they say!
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Just wanted to provide an update. The vet was out yesterday, did a lameness exam including flexions. My horse’s left hind doesn’t step as well as his right and moves inwards (adducts) more than the right. Honestly, I was watching and I couldn’t really see anything. It’s very subtle. He flexed fine. I went ahead and did x-rays of his hocks and stifles and everything looks as it should.
I also had x-rays of his front feet. They didn’t do the hind feet and said they don’t normally do them. Kind of disappointed in that, maybe I should have insisted. I’m thinking I may have them done too when the vet is out again. Both of the front feet look like they are actually angled inward slightly, and the palmar angle is basically even. The vet said he would like to see a bit more heel to improve that. I will send the x-rays to my farrier once I get them.
They have this cool software on their iPad that does thermal imaging, which I have never seen before. Basically shows where there is heat in the body. He looked good, no red flags.
I got the invoice about an hour after I came home yesterday. :eek: Over $1,000!! That includes vaccines and a fecal test.
So the vet’s opinion is that he is just young and weak and his conformation doesn’t help with building muscle in his hindquarters. He tends to pull himself along with his front end instead of engaging his hind end. He said to continue what I’ve been doing with him. So that gives me peace of mind anyway. Will definitely get the hind feet x-rayed soon too.
The vet was very complimentary of my guy, he loved his temperament and of course how cute he is. 
Thanks everyone for all of your input and suggestions. It was helpful for sure!!
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That is disappointing that they wouldn’t do balance x-rays in the back. I would have insisted because that is the end that has the issue and since when did a horse only have 2 hooves that could have issues?
I guess you could do an experiment like I did…get some wedge pads (2 degree—nothing really extreme) and see if you can tape them on long enough to give him a go on the lunge line for a few minutes and see if he goes better. I had hoof boots for my mare so I put the wedges in the boots. It made a definite difference from the first step. It is possible rather than needing more heel, he needs less toe? That is what we adjusted on my mare.
I think you have a reasonable answer that his hocks are sound so I would continue what you are doing. My mare was very much a 98lb weakling as a 4 y.o. and I didn’t even attempt serious work. It was more of an exposure to things bop around year. She was much improved by 5.
Susan
That is disappointing they didn’t at least shoot laterals of the hind feet, especially if the front angles are on the flat side.
I am coming in way late, just after watching these videos and seeing your vet update. Very nice horse.
He looks far more comfortable to me in the lunge video, off the bat. In the under-saddle he looks uncomfortable. Could be related to his career change, but it could be related to some SI/back soreness which I think I see (detailed below).
I agree the LH is not articulating fully and there is strange circumduction… but I first saw RH, particularly the hock, which I did not think flexed to the same degree over cavaletti. He is quick to deload the RH.
I am of the opinion weak is lame; horses are naturally stronger to one side, but when people say a horse is weak behind, they are softly padding the fact the horse is lame behind - some kind of discomfort is causing the horse to be one-sided.
After watching the canter video, I still think there is something both hinds, but my eye was drawn to RH’s hock and LH stifle; I would not be surprised to see some SI soreness. Maybe caused by thin soles behind. He drops out of the canter on his LH stifle, which is probably sore as a result. He does not want to push off with the RH, but he also has trouble with the LH when you come down from trot.
Sometimes, SI soreness presents as hock and stifle issues. It can be a red herring and lead us down the wrong tree, so to speak. When you flexed, everything was 100% perfect? No difference at all?
Good his x-rays were clean, but I deal with more soft tissue injuries in stifles than anything. Something to consider.
Is he glaringly lame? No. But your eye did see something, and you should always trust your gut.
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After reading your update, this sounds similar to my young TB, who was also not tracking up evenly on 1 hind, but not lame per se. I don’t have $1000, but I love my vet who has magical eyes (OK just a ton of experience & sympathy for my poverty). After some watching & prodding (& listening to what I saw & felt ), culprit was his sacrum was pretty out of whack. Adjusted & he is already improving.
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It was a big adjustment so it will take some time as I keep working on massaging & stretching tight muscles & rebuilding loose ones, but we’ll get there, I’m not in a rush. And I’m not into injecting 5 yr olds. I was definitely relieved to find something that was fixable & deal with it for $100 because I’ve certainly dealt with worse!
Anyway, if it’s useful. Just like humans, lower back/pelvis issues will affect everything below that, having muscles & soft tissues that move both stifle & hock.
I agree with the person who said that if you look long enough at any horse you think you see something off. One of my horses seemed to take some “funny steps” with his left hind. Chiro stated stifle weakness, gave some exercises and he gradually got better. We opted not to canter him at all until he developed some strength in his hind end. Once he became fitter he looked much better.
My vet told me that they hate these obscure symptoms as they are almost always hard to pin point. Acute problems are always easier to diagnose.
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here we have a young horse started into work when he was a late 2, driving, You have had him (almost?) a year and he nearly 4
I see a horse striding unevenly with a suspect left hind leg. He powers unevenly , it is subtle.
I would back off the lunge and pole exercises.
I would get a vet out for flexion exam with xray of the hocks and possible investigation of the sacrum. Toe dragging can arise in the sacrum as weel as reluctance to articulate. Bad hocks do not always = gimping lameness
if cleared for work I would up the quiet walk work outside with hills within reason. Overall this young horse has seen a lot of work and the small arena with frequent turns are not useful when there might be a joint issue.
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I’ve now had several ponies that came from not the typical sporthorse background (one was a former Amish pony like yours) and have played the “is he unsound or is he weak?” guessing game with a couple of them. When it is very mild or hard to discern and my vet doesn’t have any particular concerns, I pretty much abandon arena work as soon as I’m sure that I can stop/turn safely and spend my riding time going on trail rides that incorporate hills and other varied terrain, starting only at the walk and adding in trot, then a bit canter as the horse gets stronger. I try to focus on straightness and a good steady rhythm during the trail rides. This program has made a HUGE difference for them when I take them back in the arena 30 days to several months later. Even my trainer has been surprised by the improvement in the quality of gaits, particularly the canter, we are able to achieve without doing much arena schooling.
I’m primarily a foxhunter though and don’t compete much, so to me getting the horse comfortable outdoors is an essential part of training and while I want good solid basic flatwork training established, it doesn’t make a big difference to me if it takes a little longer to establish it, though I know it drives some of my eventing friends nuts to watch how long I will basically just wander around on a new horse for before starting “serious” work.
Sounds like you are already doing lots of work outside, just wanted to encourage you that even though it can take a while, I’ve had slow, steady hill work sort out a number of “interesting” pony canters!
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