Is overworking the horse common OR what is wrong with me?

[Janet]

Just wanted to point out that strong muscles do NOT mean strong tendons and bones. Muscles strengthen much, much faster than any other part of the body. That’s why you see so many tendon/ligament issues. The horse looks like he can handle it because his muscles are huge, but the rest of him isn’t caught up yet. It’s important to keep in mind that, especially in young horses, the rest of the horse may not be as fit as he looks.

I agree with part, but not all of this.

It is my understanding that many (if not most) ligament and tendon injuries happen when the MUSCLES get tired and weak, and the tendons/ligaments end up taking over more of the burden.

(That is why “riding in deep mud” results in tendon injuries - because the muscles tire much faster in mud)

What counts is the ENDURANCE of the muscles, not their bulk.

That is why you start with LSD to build up the strength of the ligaments and tendons, then you do “power” work to build up the strength of the muscles, and then you do “conditioning” work to build the muscle endurance, and to build up wind and heart. How much you need depends on the discipline and the level. But until you have all of it in balance, you don’t truly have a “fit” horse.

[Icecapade]

hmm innnnteresting…

mostly b/c I am just beginning w/ dressage and I know arena work is HARD… so I’m very hesitant to drive my horse in the arena as he is really using deep muscles that he hasn’t used much if at all in his past endurance life.

But coming from endurance, we used to ride 4-5 times a week with hills/flat and one heavy ride… nothing under 15 miles at 9mph.

so I tend to be the work out nazi at my barn… I expect 20-30 minutes of quality arena time including a warm up…

and then I go hacking and do 7-8 mph for 30-60 minutes.

Or I got do 10-15 miles at a brisk trot 10-15 walk 5 pace.
But I don’t ride ever day as I live far from my horse, so I ‘push’ but only to a point, I don’t have a high end hard fit… he is soft fit but I know I can push him to a point. I exepct he work for me- but I’m not stupid, he is 16, riden 2-3 times a week…

and that works for us. Its not ideal and I hate it but it is what it is.

You need to push the horse but not break them… and some people have and always will be afraid of a little sweat.

[Auventera_Two]

An hour a day at trot and canter on trails would be just a warmup for us. But that’s endurance, not dressage. It’s usually harder on horses to do collected work, than to move in the “working” gaits. Usually the first 5 miles on my horse is just getting her focused and on the aids, settling into a good balanced trot, and then the next 15-20 miles is when she gives her best work. I ride with a heart rate monitor and use it as a conditioning guideline. But the Energizer Arabs are a different story than the heavy bodied Warmbloods. Every horse is different. I get bored when we do our flat work at home, but I know it’s necessary.

[Tilly]

How long do regular workouts last?
20-40 minutes for the actual working. I have a ten minute walk warmup on the buckle, and then we start working in the walk. After our workout, she has a ten minute cool down on the buckle, or as long as it takes for her to return to normal.

How many days a week?
4 days a week, one of those days is a lesson, in the ring. When she gets a little more in shape, and I’m riding her an extra day, that day will be just walk/trot on a loose rein around the half-mile track [the footing is too bad to canter on]. She gets lunged once a week too. She’s out of shape, so I’m trying to get her fit again. There are no turnouts at the barn, aside from a 50’ x 100’ arena, and time is limited in there, if you’re lucky enough to get it. She lives in a 24’ x 24’ pen, so she can self-exercise if she wants to.

How hard/long are your lessons? Do you take walk breaks?
once a week, and 40-60 minutes. We work fairly hard, of course, it’s always hot so even easy work can be hard in the sun [no indoor]. We take walk breaks whenever she has done something very well, or she needs to catch her breath.

What are your goals (are you actively trying to build stamina)?
Aside from the usual training goals, I want to get her back in shape.

(If you answer these, then please include horse age and approximate level of training)
11 years old, we did h/j for 4 years, so she’s about Training right now.

[mbm]

my trainers motto is a short no-nonsense workout 6 days/week.

i personally do 5 days/week - and depending on where the horse is some of that will be lunging over cavelletti’s etc to build topline etc. if the horse is green or coming back from injury i might do every other day lunging for a few weeks and build up from there.

my personal experience has been that many “popular” show barns over work their horses and end up with many horse who got “cast in their stalls”

if you are in doubt you could always get the klimke book whch lays out training regimes which are quite sensible and effective.

[ToN_Farm]

What’s the connection between hard work and getting cast in the stall? You mean the horses are tired, and lie down a lot?

I think that the BNT barns work their horses hard, but not for a long period. That is because they don’t have time to work a horse for an hour. I would say that 30-40 minutes would be the maxium from start to finish, but with few if any walk breaks. That is what I’ve seen.

I think the good trainers vary the work and exercises. Trot work one day, canter the next, lateral work one day, high collection the next, ans so forth. Of course, a little bit of everything each day, but focusing on a different thing each ride so as not to over tax the muscle groups.

I think it’s good to work a horse very day at least a little bit. If humans need daily exercise, why wouldn’t a horse? Look at the way horses were ridden in the old west, all day long up down hills, etc. Since they were the only forum of transportation, I would think that the rider was careful about preserving the soundness of the horse. Maybe not. Just a thought.

I believe that if a horse is not sweating in normal temperatures, he is not working. Same as with humans.

I have never had a horse puffing at the end of a ride, not in my life. Even at the end of a Novice x-country run, my horse was not winded.
Maybe I don’t work them hard enough?

[Coppers_mom]

[QUOTE=Janet;4088016]
I agree with part, but not all of this.

It is my understanding that many (if not most) ligament and tendon injuries happen when the MUSCLES get tired and weak, and the tendons/ligaments end up taking over more of the burden.

(That is why “riding in deep mud” results in tendon injuries - because the muscles tire much faster in mud)

What counts is the ENDURANCE of the muscles, not their bulk.

That is why you start with LSD to build up the strength of the ligaments and tendons, then you do “power” work to build up the strength of the muscles, and then you do “conditioning” work to build the muscle endurance, and to build up wind and heart. How much you need depends on the discipline and the level. But until you have all of it in balance, you don’t truly have a “fit” horse.[/QUOTE]
That’s exactly what I was saying. The horse looks fit enough, so he gets worked hard, but his body isn’t able to cope with the stress. Doing that just once, or over and over and over again will lead to tendon, ligament, and even bone injuries.

ToN- Saying a horse got cast in a stall seems to be a popular way of saying “I’ve broken my pony by working him too hard, but want to blame it on something else”.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=ToN Farm;4088529]
What’s the connection between hard work and getting cast in the stall? You mean the horses are tired, and lie down a lot?

I think that the BNT barns work their horses hard, but not for a long period. That is because they don’t have time to work a horse for an hour. I would say that 30-40 minutes would be the maxium from start to finish, but with few if any walk breaks. That is what I’ve seen.[/QUOTE]

“cast in the stall” is what everyone says - i have never heard anyone say “my horse broke down because of the training”. and honestly, i have seen more horses laid up in the"popular" barns than anywhere else.

your comments about training time is exactly what my trainer means by a “no nonsense workout” and this is what i have seen elsewhere too.

[ToN_Farm]

Oh…lol…now I get it. I haven’t heard the ‘got cast’ excuse, but there are a variety of others. Stone bruise, pulled a shoe, slipped in the mud, etc. etc.

[Dressage_Art]

Oh ah… Unfortunately I heard about some trainers too many times: “X is a great trainer, a shame that most horses get lame…”

[QUOTE=mbm;4089101]
“cast in the stall” is what everyone says - i have never heard anyone say “my horse broke down because of the training”.[/QUOTE]
Ditto, or they say “got hurt in the turn out” There are some barns that always have majority of their horses come back lame from shows or get lame at shows or have floating lameness. It’s depressing…

There are some trainers who seem to have a really bad luck with their horses as well: they train them to be #1 with lots of blue ribbons, year-end awards, but somehow they are always a lame step away from winning really big!

It’s an interesting phenomena and it seems everybody knows those lame barns and trainers, but themselves… It’s almost similar to the abusive riders - everybody can see that they are too harsh with their horses, but those abusive riders are in absolute denial.

I don’t really know what it is: bad luck or overworking those horses… all I know that I want to stay as far away from those barns and trainers as I can.

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=pintopiaffe;4087011]
Personally, I use an endurance method of conditioning which means not stressing the same muscle groups 2 days in a row. I will school one day, hill work the next, school the third etc. If I school two or three days in a row, it is progressive and different focus. I credit this methoid–including long slow distance on pavement on a consistent basis for basically saving my horse’s soundness when he incurred what should have been a career (and possibly life!) ending injury a couple of years ago.[/QUOTE]ditto and good for you for keeping your hrose sound - not an easy thing to do.

[Dressage_Art]

I am genuinely curious about how hard you guys work your horses. How long do regular workouts last?
– 45-60 minutes of work with 15 minutes trail ride after on a loose rain.

How many days a week?
— 2 days off every week. Working 5 days per week usually. If its supper hot 100F+ I just take a long trail rides.

How hard/long are your lessons? Do you take walk breaks?
— I don’t have a trainer, so no regular lessons… but I do lots and lots of walk breaks for us. I listen to my mare if it’s too much, I’ll stop doing difficult collection or tempis and just do something easy.

What are your goals (are you actively trying to build stamina)?
— Keep her sound is my only goal. Since my mare already was diagnosed with a mild navicular in her one left front leg - and she had almost a year off (2007) it was very difficult for me not to be able to spend enough time with her. I want her to stay sound enough to do trails together. Climbing the dressage ladder is not that important for me.

Please include horse age and approximate level of training
— My mare is 10, coming on 11. I like riding two overlapping levels in the same year. We show 3rd and 4th levels now. Currently for 2009 we have four scores of 60%+ on 3rd Level and four scores of 60%+ on 4th Level for this show year. Our highest score on 3rd is 66% so far and highest score on 4th is 64% so far.I 'm hoping to do a couple more of local shows this year, but that’s about it. We have no huge show goals.

[sid]

Like anything regarding living creatures, nothing is so cut and dried.

Most of my horses were bred, raised and trained here to adulthood…and used for dressage lessons. Some competed. And they could successfully just because the way they were managed their work all week without overdoing it to break them down physicially.

They were used for lessons 3 days a week…sometimes each horse 2 x a day at least 5 hrs. apart. Let’s face it the average lesson does not “overwork” a horse unless they have had no walk breaks and are breathing hard and wringing wet when they are done. We did not take rank beginner riders. A few hunters that wanted to embark into dressage. Those who were advanced? Well, never used that horse more than 1 x a day.

On the other 2 days, the instructor rode them solo – no lessons – just bringing them up (and correcting mistakes from lesson takers). My goal was to always keep the horses at least a level or two above the rider who was taking lessons. It was delightful for all – and the horses.

We were very judicious about who could “lesson” on a horse that was going up the ranks and often moved them to a horse of a lower level (which was higher than they could ride).

I have an indoor and outdoor…as well as good hilly trails. Getting into the outdoor was a refresher for the horse…and trails even better.

But sadly, most dressage riders don’t seem to understand the advantage of doing relaxing trail/hill work as it pertains to building fitness and mental relaxation for both horse and rider.

So we did that on our own. These horses are now 16 and 17. Still sound, still sane, and practically push-button…even when they may be laid off during the winter.

That’s my program anyway…hope this helps.

[mbm]

also, i dont really think the horses are breaking down from too much work - i think they are breaking down from improper work.

whether that is from over drilling or asking too much too soon -

i dont think it is from riding for 15 minutes too long.

[dalpal]

I tell my “easy keeper” mare…if you want to continue eating that delicious grain that is so near and dear to your heart, you got to move your bootie girl.

Seriously though…there is no set time for me. If we get the goal accomplished in 30 minutes…we’re done…if it takes an hour and 15 minutes, we work an hour and fifteen minutes. She gets the weekends off because of my schedule.

I let my older horse have 3 days off and he works lightly, stretching one day and then moderate work one day, hard work one day, and stretching yet again on another day. He is an older schoolmaster, so his program is much different, just keeping him tuned up…I’m not trying to accomplish new things in his training program. I usually ride him 30-45 minutes.

[morehorses]

great ideas - thanks all

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments, opinions, and experiences! It seems that most of you employ the same parameters as I do to determine length, difficulty, and variety of daily workouts. It’s nice to know that there are others out there who don’t feel they have to ride their horse into the ground in order to excel at this sport. I was getting a little disillusioned with some of what I have seen. I think I will pass this trainer by and keep looking for someone that has the well-being of the horse in the forefront of their mind.

[partlycloudy]

I read somewhere that the ‘German Way’ is to ride the horse in relation to their age…ie 3yr olds 3 x’s a week, 4 yr olds 4x’s and so on (still not quite sure what to do with my 11 yr old :winkgrin:)
Having said that (and generally following that rule) the just started horses usually get worked 4 to 5 days in a row, but its not hard work, just walk trot for a bit, just to mold their minds. Once they ‘get it’ they go to the age rule.
An old coach of mine felt that a horse could only concentrate for 45 min max, that anything longer than that was abuse…hacking and trail riding exempt of course.
Another thing I’ve found (learned from a hunter trainer) is to work the horse for their 3 or 4 days concurrently and let them play in turn-out the other 3. makes for a much fresher and happier horse, and they learn faster.
That’s what I do.
Not a bnt, but someone who starts alot of horses

[Hazelnut]

@Coppers mom;4087855

Just wanted to point out that strong muscles do NOT mean strong tendons and bones. Muscles strengthen much, much faster than any other part of the body. That’s why you see so many tendon/ligament issues. The horse looks like he can handle it because his muscles are huge, but the rest of him isn’t caught up yet. It’s important to keep in mind that, especially in young horses, the rest of the horse may not be as fit as he looks.

There is a point when you’re trying to break past 2nd level when you have to work harder. The horse needs to be stronger, fitter, and more through. However, it shouldn’t be some ghastly 4 hour ordeal every day. Even GP horses shouldn’t be doing GP work every day. Their bodies (muscles, tendons, ligaments) need time to recover. That’s what builds strength and fitness; the muscle (tendon, ligament, bone) being strained and then allowed to heal. Working a horse hard every single day at the same thing isn’t allowing for that healing period, and is just going to do damage, which may be why you see so many layups.

I would personally avoid any stable that required that much work for any horse, from the beginning stages of training to GP. It just sounds like a lot of miles, but not much consideration on how to really get the horse fit. Horses need to slowly build up to stuff like that, and will last longer in the end if brought along carefully than if they’re thrown into work that way.

Agreed. Building muscle strength without maintaining flexibility of the muscle, tendon, and ligaments can be a problem for the musculoskeletal system. It is easy to add tone and strength to a muscle without maintaining optimal flexibility. Cross training, building in exercises to the cool down which stretch warm muscles back out after collected work, and ground work to aid muscles in remaining elastic are all beneficial in maintaining musculoskeletal health. Competition horses should be treated like athletes with the same consideration to their training needs.

[MsM]

From the story written, my concerns would be more about the type of training/work and the apparent “one size fits all” situation.
There is a big difference between riding for condition and training, even in the same ride. If the ride is intensely focussed every day on developing new skills the whole time, I believe that is too much work for a youngster and really for any horse. If much of that time is spent in work that is already comfortable for the horse and is building muscle, muscle memory and wind then I find it more appropriate. Dont know that I would send a 3 year old, but possibly a 4 year old already with some base. There is so much more about the way the training is conducted and the condition and the attitude of the animals to consider.
Going along with that - I would be hesitant if the “trainer” appeared to have a recipe type formula that was applied the same way to every horse. Training needs to individualized and the trainer needs to be willing to hop off after an important training breakthrough and to adjust the time and intensity based upon the horse’s reactions. Yes, fitness needs to be built and the horse needs to be worked past its comfort zone at times, but insisting that any horse fit the mold would be a red flag to me.

[narcisco]

There are two main reasons trainers overwork.

1. Mentioned above: the pressure to get horses to a certain level for their owners, to show, to score higher and win more.

2. Is much more insidious, and used to be more prevalent in the h/j world, but I’m seeing in more and more in dressage.

These are well meaning trainers who know what it takes to get the horse to the higher levels. They want to train riders to get the horses to the higher levels. Because the students are, by definition, less competent than the master, it takes the students longer to get the same work done. So, the trainers push, push, push to get it through to the student and the students need tons of miles to learn (and too few have two horses on which to pound).

The horses can suffer as a result. Down the road it results in a “disposable horse” syndrome, where horse are either breaking down or just aren’t good enough. The student moves from horse to horse.

It is owners like the OP, who have the good horse sense to say, “I’m not going to the Olympics,” who keep things slow and steady who often keep riding the longest and get the furthest. Those with the high expectations of themselves and their horses often become disillusioned, burn out or drop and drop out due to the high degree of pressure and the injuries to the horses.

The excellence of conditioning programs such as Janet proposes are usually in inverse correlation to the amount of pressure put on the horses. It’s isn’t the hard work, it’s the pressure. Tension begets pressure begets injury. If the horse are working happily and in harmony, there will be little pressure, even if they are worked hard. If they ware worked in tension, there will be injuries. Discerning owners know the difference.

Good hard work is our Puritan ethic. Horses weren’t Puritans.