That explains why,when I am trying to stabilize my lower leg, it is more effective to think “KNEES down” rather than"Heels down".
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Because Dressage and biomechanics don’t need to be disciple specific.
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I know…I’ve said that several times. But you can’t deny that the dressage seat is very different from the seat you use when jumping a course. I’m just looking for someone who specifically focuses on the biomechanics of forward seat riding for those times when I jumping and not flatting. My MW book doesn’t say anything about jumping. I want someone who dissects the forward seat the way she does the flatwork seat, for lack of a better word.
Not contributing a lot here… but if you look at older showjumping not many rode in the forward seat. Even now, german riders ride in much more contact. Older german riders were doing heavy dressage seats almost between fences.
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I’m going to take a big risk here and recommend
Hunter Seat Equitation by George Morris. There are many photographs and explanations of the hunt seat two point and three point contact.
He also has some exercises using dressage .
I know a hunter instructor who uses a lot of dressage in her flat work lessons and she emphasizes correct position.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by riding like a dressage rider. Or opening a horse up to gallop.
There arent many photographs of riders between jumps. Videos would be more useful as you could see what the rider does between jumps.
BTW, the rider doesn’t close the hip angle, the motion of the horse does.
Thanks! I own that book, and it’s really doesn’t get into biomechanics like MW does.
Its really quite confusing to me that people don’t seem to be understanding that there is a difference between a “dressage seat” and a “forward seat,” for lack of better terms. Especially since I posted a video on this forum of myself jumping some months ago and I specifically got the comment that I looked like a dressage rider!
I am still not quite sure what you mean by bio mechanics as it applies to the forward seat.
Yes, a lot of hunter riders ride the whole course in half seat, but that is a style/instruction choice, not bio mechanics
If you want to win at hunter shows then I suspect MW will not be of much help to you.
Understanding the bio mechanics of the forward seat may help you improve your form over fences, but it will not necessarily help you win ribbons .
You may want to watch videos of hunter/jumper riders you admire and study what they are doing during their rounds.
Google "Caprilli and the forward seat " and see if there are any translations of his writings on the subject (if there are any). He’ s the one who invented it.
Good luck.
My point is it doesn’t need to. Doing flat work that focuses on biomechanics, Dressage or otherwise, helps because you learn what muscles you need to use and why, what the position of limbs, shoulders etc., do and why, and it creates an overall understanding of how your body influences the ride.
I was first introduced to it many years ago by a hunter coach turned Dressage rider who was short listed for the Pan Am games. His major in college was kinesiology. I later learned under an event coach with the same methods and background in Kinesiology. Biomechanics.
If you are unable to transfer what is learned from MW or others in a full seat to a two point… well you need to learn why you are doing what you’re doing in the forward position first. Then you will be able to apply the concepts.
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Part of What you are failing to consider includes asymmetries, matching the forces, the “fencing lunge” staying “caught up,” & probably a lot of other things.
I will try to be more clear.
Your assertion that MW work does not apply to jumping is INCORRECT.
MW work applies to how a rider interfaces with a horse, copes with the motion and energy of the horse, analyzes the asymmetries of each and between each, and formulates a plan to identify, cope with, and progress in improving these things. You are incorrect that it does not apply to jumping. You just haven’t got that figured out yet.
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FFS, I never said her work doesn’t apply to jumping. Not once. Because it does, and I’ve literally said that. But she does not dissect the forward/jump seat, at least not in the book I have. I’d love it if she had a chapter devoted to jumping, but she doesn’t, hence why I’m here. I want the minutiae of exactly how weight should be distributed, exactly how tight thigh/knee/calf should be, exactly what work each muscle is doing, etc. Unless it’s in one of her books that I don’t know about—and I assume it isn’t, or someone would’ve mentioned it… Why is it so hard for you to understand what I’m asking for? I’m very aware that her book is helpful for all disciplines, but it’s also lacking any discussion on jumping.
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She doesn’t need to dissect the forward seat because if one is proficient at what she teaches it’s automatically applied. You don’t need some special “I ride hunters” biomechanics instruction. You’re already failing because you can’t see the connection of basic Dressage to any jumping discipline. Jumping is flat work with obstacles in the way. If you never ride off your seat you’re doing it wrong.
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How am I failing? I can see the connection of dressage to jumping. I was an MW-like explanation, broken down muscle-by-muscle, of jump position. What different releases (short crest, long crest, automatic) do to the human body and the horse’s, a biomechanically detailed critique of the hunter “laying on the neck” position, a discussion of the different stirrup length for jumping, etc. That doesn’t mean I don’t think what MW DOES discuss doesn’t ever apply to jumpers.
I’d love to see who advocates for a jumper rider to sit in the “vertical and neutral” “full” seat at every moment except over the fence when they’re galloping around 5’ course, as well. No one I know. I’d like an MW-like explanation about the position a rider should have at what times and how it influences the horse’s motion.
I’m done responding to people who refuse to acknowledge that jumping calls for SOME different aspects of rider position than dressage does.
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[QUOTE
Understanding the bio mechanics of the forward seat may help you improve your form over fences, but it will not necessarily help you win ribbons .
You may want to watch videos of hunter/jumper riders you admire and study what they are doing during their rounds.
Google "Caprilli and the forward seat " and see if there are any translations of his writings on the subject (if there are any). He’ s the one who invented it.
Good luck. End Quote.
I have two books with Caprilli’s writings. Both are for sale on Amazon.
The first one is “The Caprilli Papers” by Captain Federico Caprilli, translated and edited by Major Piero Santinin. Santini explains paragraphs and sentences from Caprilli’s original articles, putting it all together in a pretty coherent manner for civilian riders. This book is EXPENSIVE, on Amazon the cheapest one was $218.99 US and goes up to $799.65 US. Believe me, the explanations really help to understand what Caprilli was trying to communicate.
The second one is “Horses and Horsemanship Through the Ages” by Luigi Gianoli. This books has an English translation of the articles dictated by Caprilli on pages 158-170. This is the real stuff, written for cavalrymen in the Italian cavalry. As far as teasing out what Caprilli actually meant as applied for civilian riding, Santini’s book is MUCH better. This book is a lot cheaper, from $4.18 US to $58.99 US. Remember, these articles were written for cavalrymen for war, not for civilian riders.
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As far as what the OP wants the best choice is probably–and this book is under three different titles, “The Forward Seat” or “Forward Riding” or “Modern Horsemanship for Beginners”. by Vladimir Littauer. Three different titles, same book.
His chapter in the book–Chapter I–Position, goes into great detail about the nitty gritty details of what to do and how to do it correctly, and the reasons for doing it this way, of course this is expanded upon in the rest of the book, especially in Chapter II–Ordinary Riding.
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I have her early Ride With Your Mind Masterclass book and there’s an entire chapter devoted to jumping.
https://www.bookdepository.com/Ride-with-Your-Mind-Masterclass-Mary-Wanless/9781872082974
It’s out of print but there should be a few copies out there somewhere. It’s been my bible for many many years.
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