Mary Wanless is the most acclaimed rider biomechanics expert in the dressage world. I ride both dressage and hunter/jumper, and while I think some of what she says carries over, a lot of it just doesn’t “work” with H/J. Is there some biomechanics guru of the H/J world?
I would also like to know this.
Out of all my reading on hunt seat riding there has not been much I could use (I have MS, no proprioceptive sense, bad coordination, horrible balance, and I told my riding teacher that I NEEDED a position “nazi”.) I have not run into authors that were specifically into biomechanics, sorry.
I have gotten the best knowledge from Forward Seat authors. I found little snippets that helped from Littauer’s pre-“Common Sense Horsemanship” books, the ones from the late 1930s-early 1940s. I found “Riding Forward” (the same book came out under two other titles also) to be useful as he goes a bit in depth about the differences between Forward Seat and what other schools of horsemanship in the USA practiced at that time.
The best one, though, is “School for Riding” by Sergei Kournakoff. This book is pretty elementary, about teaching a beginning rider, and I learned from this book how to fix three specific position problems that had plagued me for decades, (with plenty of criticism from riding teachers.) This interesting book is the nearest one could get to a multi-media presentation in the 1930s-1940s. Right now there is a copy on Amazon for US$12.00.
The early Forward Seat authors did not specifically talk about the biomechanics, but they did describe how to do it right and the reasons behind what they were saying.
Jackie Cochran, you might enjoy a book called “An Anatomy of Riding” by Volker and Heinrich Schudziarra. It helped me form a mental image of what I’m supposed to be doing in various movements.
Both authors are riders and M.D.s, and they describe how the bones, muscles and joints of the human body work while riding. They cover both the dressage and jumping seats and aids. It’s written for the layman but is fairly technical, so a working knowledge of human anatomy is helpful!
It’s in English, translated from the original German, and is about $10-$15 used from various sources.
Hi Hej, thanks for the suggestion, I’ve owned and read that book for years (decades?).
I wish there was a direct equivalent for hunt seat, just like the OP would like a “Mary Wanless” equivalent.
I do know I go back to “School For Riding” by Kournakoff now when I have problems, then Littauer’s book for my problems riding Hunt Seat.
I have also found “Riding and Schooling Horses” by Harry D. Chamberlin to be very useful; just recently a third of a sentence in this book solved a problem my riding teacher has been yelling about at me for YEARS, keeping my lower leg forward instead of drifting back. I was reading the part about the knee CLOSELY, he said that if the knee was too relaxed the heels would go back. I knew that pinching with my knees was not what he was talking about (he described that also), so I went to a picture of human muscles in my medical dictionary, and determined that he HAD to be talking about the rectus femoris muscle on the front of the thigh. When I concentrate on keeping some tension in that muscle my riding teacher has been praising my lower leg looking strong and stable, for the first time in over a decade. AND the horse I ride has become lighter to my leg aids because I am finally giving him a full release from my leg aid.
Picky picky details can lead to superior riding.
Chamberlin gets into detail about riding properly AND gives reasons why a rider should ride the way he describes. But he is US Cavalry, Kournakoff and Littauer were Russian Cavalry, these guys were supposed to be able to ride any horse the Cavalry told them to. They were not modern Hunt Seat show riders, but modern Hunt Seat descended from what these guys wrote about.
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Picky picky details can lead to superior riding. [/QUOTE]
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Okay, I am not sure why you think Wanless’ work does not apply to jumping. When next you attend a clinic, go ahead and twist her arm REALLY HARD to give you a jumping technique lesson. I have gotten jump lessons from her, but you have to be a little ruthless about pushing for it. I jump, and I can tell you that her work ABSOLUTELY applies over fences. Take it from someone who has had about 100 lessons from Mary.
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I’m talking about her books; I can’t clinic with her, and I haven’t seen anything about jumping in the book of hers that I’m reading. I’m not sure if you are American, but a lot of her dressage position teaching doesn’t translate at all to hunter/equitation. Even the ideal dressage seat that she teaches is not idea for showjumping. You don’t see Grand Prix riders ever ride a course of fences looking like a dressage rider—it just doesn’t work. For doing dressage work on jumpers? Sure, her teaching applies. For actually schooling a course? Not as much.
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I obviously haven’t read it but Jane Savoie has a book coming out in mid July “Dressage Between the Fences” You can preorder it on Amazon
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I dunno, I’m an eventer and I find much of what she teaches very effective over fences and on the flat. Have you seen her newest book New Anatomy for Rider Connection? I have done alot of my own extrapolation, but so much of her description of how to get your own body under control has helped me stabilize so much better than traditional verb-age. Love how my leg works much better now than the old forcing of the heel down and therefore the leg and ankle getting frozen and feet falling asleep.
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If you look at the ideal seat she teaches (i.e. no closing hip angle, seat bones pointed straight down), for example, it’s not practical to ride that way between fences. I’m not saying her work isn’t broadly applicable, but I’m looking for some who gets into the minutiae like she does specifically for riding on course.
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I am not aware of any authors specializing in biomechanics of forward seat to the degree that Mary Wanless does. Three authors recommended to me for a more “sciency” take on HJ equitation were Sally Swift (“centered riding”), Anna White-Mullin (effective show eq), and Hollie McNeil (fundamentals of English riding).
I believe there is an Australian university-sponsored riding/teaching curriculum - based on study of biomechanics for a variety of disciplines. No experience with it myself, I’ve just browsed by it in the past and thought it sounded interesting.
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If you haven’t worked directly with her or an instructor in person then I can guess you might be missing out on some of the practicality. Think of it this way, 95%+ of any jumping is BETWEEN the fences. All of the mechanics works applies. As a MW enthusiast I would be very interested to help you out. (Have also attended 6 teacher training clinics with her. Not jumped through the hoops to get certified, however…). If you are interested, message me and I would love to give you hand.
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Thanks for the offer; it’s very generous. But can you explain how a hip angle that isn’t closed and seat bones pointed straight down is ideal for riding on a course, even between jumps? It is not. The basic seat is different, which means the weight distribution between seat, leg, and heel is different, etc., etc.
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I will pull out my older MW books, I think I remember a chapter on jumping, but I have to find them and they are up in the attic. Will probably be a few days.
I did a quick search online and found this older article http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2017/01/ride-with-your-mind-over-obstacles-with-mary-wanless/
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OP I respectfully disagree with this statement.
The basic seat is not different.
What has happened to the hunt seat over the years is two things
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Judges award bad riding and riders emulate bad riders because they win.
I’ve seen photos of riders who won classes and they were ducking over the horses neck, their legs out off the horse, roached backed. -
Most jumping saddles these days are designed to put the rider in a chair seat. (i dont know the reason for this unless it is supposed to help the rider get out of the saddle?)
There is no way a rider can get the proper shoulder over hip and hip over heel alignment.
In answer to your original question, you may want to cross post this in the Eventer forum. I dont know of any myself , but I am sure you will get some good suggestions there.
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Yes I have a to say that the American show hunter style is just not good.
OP. As a general rule, when giving mechanics advice to riders, I NEVER get into generalizations. A prime tenant of MW work, is that it is a SPECIFIC PRESCRIPTION for each rider. I would not attempt to address any issue a rider DESCRIBES to me. It is very, very, very likely that the riders description of “what is happening” is not what a more astute observer would see. IF the rider did have an accurate description of their issue, they would also very likely know what to do about it.
For a lot of riders, “the problem” is not what they think it is. The significant physical issues are NOT what they think they are, or they are not understood as deeply as they need to be.
OP, you should consider seriously that MW work could help you A LOT. It is not that the work is not applicable, it is that a deeper understanding is needed to apply it.
OP I appreciate that you have started this thread. MW work is fabulous stuff. It absolutely does apply to jumping. The “ironing board fold” over fences is what she teaches as a jump position, but there is A LOT more going on that that. And people could really benefit from addressing the basic horse/rider interface as MW describes it.
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I don’t think the OP has the knowledge and they truly need an instructor.
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I am a hunter rider and a huge fan of MW and Feldenkrais. A good horseman probably spends more than 90% of their ride time on the flat. If you drop your stirrups every time you flat and turn your focus onto “training” which is the definition of dressage I think it will carry over into your jumping.
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I’m not saying hunter riders today have good riding, but evens decades ago, I’ve never seen hunter OR jumper riders ride on course, between jumps, like a dressage rider. They use a half-seat more often than not (other than jumper riders doing right rollbacks), and it makes sense—the horse needs to open up and gallop. If you could post a link to a jumper who does ride like this—I’d be surprised.
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What could possibly possess you to write this, given that you don’t know anything about my riding? And what is “the knowledge”?
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