I have been wondering this for a long time for no real practical reason, I just would like to know. If you had one of those TBs whose papers were yanked for being bred by AI or if say you had a registered stallion and mare and bred them via AI is there a registry where you could register that foal and take his pedigree with him? I know the American WB will take the horse but it never said if it would take the pedigree minus any JC papers. (I asked but no response yet) You would still have to DNA test it for their registry though and if you (for simplicity’s sake) had the parents or had access to them to get samples taken and sent off to show parentage is there a registry that will register the horse as the offspring of that sire/dam?
I guess not? Bummer.
First , no TBs papers are “yanked” for being bred by AI. They are never registered by the Jockey Club in the first place unless there has been a fraud and conspiracy between many people on the stallion side, as well as the mare owner.
No , there really isn’t another registry. TB is TB. Just as other registries have rules to keep a strict record of their horses breeding, so does the Jockey Club.
When people want to make up different rules than are approved by well established registries, “registries” such as AWS are created. (I was under the impression that the AWS would accept pretty much any breeding.)
I doubt that there is that much of an interest in AI TBs that a registry would be formed specifically for them.
Any TBs accepted for breeding by Warmblood registries must be Jockey Club registered if I am not mistaken.
Actually, this did happen. It was quite a while ago, with one of the cremello stallions. It was such a scandal. Ah, here’s an article about it: https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/190627/foal-papers-denied-for-ai-bred-palominos-case-heading-to-court Yes, the registrations certificates were revoked. I recall it being far more than four horses, and I think a breeding stallion was eventually also removed from the registry…?
Back then, the Performance Horse Registry existed, though, and those horses (and other TBs that had been conceived via AI) could be registered there. But the PHR died a slow death and nothing has really filled that space.
Some full TBs can be registered to the warmblood registries, if the stallion is approved and the mare gets inspected.
@Simkie, above is the entire quote. The link you provided was an article about a fraud.
Registration papers were literally yanked because those horses were produced via AI. I’m not sure why you’re arguing about it?
My response to the OP was that it is uncommon for TBs to have their “papers” yanked due to AI because they don’t usually get that far into the system without fraud.
It just doesn’t happen very often (there aren’t herds of TBs around that were bred by AI and had there “papers yanked” that are in need of a separate registry.) That was all. No sweat.
J.C. Australia seems have an ET scandal on it’s hands.
Yes it is uncommon but as above it DID happen and it was after the horses were already sold to other people so the owners suffered for no fault of their own. (Thus the fraud) The stallion was still offered for breeding until very recently (and may still be alive) but I was wondering what you would do with his resulting foals besides AWR. I know you can register anything with AWR but I didn’t know if that horse would be registered as breeding unknown or with their actual parents (assuming you had access to verify the parentage). I wondered if any other sport type registry would accept that horse as a sire to register offspring. Or say you had your own JC sire and dam but the sire was unable to breed naturally from injury or something and you just really really wanted a foal from him and the foal turns out to be a really really nice sport horse. Is there any other place besides the AWR it could be registered WITH it’s parents (vs. pedigree unknown). Since there isn’t are there any sport registries that accept a foal with an AWR parent? Thanks for the replies.
What? I had not heard about any ET scandal. What is the scoop?
I don’t know enough about the actual Warmblood registries to answer. I know that the parentage of the TBs would have to be established and I think that the TB’s accepted by those registries must be J.C. registered, as well as approved through inspection and/or performance record.
Hopefully an experienced Warmblood breeder can answer your question.
Wow. Thanks. The only way to get away with something like that is to do all the work yourself and in secret. Once you have a conspiracy someone will always talk. But seems like there might be a couple other horses looking for a registry to land in! I think it is stupid to not allow AI/ET but since it isn’t allowed people shouldn’t do it. Work to change the rules, don’t break them.
I have no experience with Warmblood breeding., only TB. Perhaps @Fred will come here and explain for us. She stood an absolutely grand TB stallion and many Warmblood mares were bred to him to get performance horses, which he did beautifully until his passing.
I wonder if you can at least record the pedigree with a lifetime USEF number…?
The PHR was intended for this purpose–registration of sport TBs–and IIRC was brought to life by the Jockey Club. But it wasn’t well managed and died a sad, slow death.
That’s really too bad. It sounds like a good idea.
I have a TB mare who was bred via AI; the breeders took the time to get her inspected and registered with Oldenburg NA. I don’t really know anything about that registry but am grateful she is recorded somewhere, even if I am mildly annoyed she is not JC registered. (I am a TB person and would have loved to have JC babies out of her… oh well.)
This is what I wanted to know, thanks! It is too bad she can’t be registered JC but at least she can be registered in something else besides just the AWR. Is there any reason you could not breed her to an (approved) TB but have it reg. Oldenburg? I am not up on the Oldenburg breeding guidelines.
I remember him well.
Oh definitely! Unfortunately the selection of approved TB stallions is a little thin on the ground. I do a lot of research around TB pedigrees particularly for distance/national hunt, too, and a lot of times the stallions sport horse people get a hold of are not at all what I would look for, pedigree-wise. So I’m looking into the inspection process should I choose to breed her outside the registry, can I get a foal inspected and registered? Not sure yet, still doing research.
I thought it was a shame they gelded Normandy Invasion without offering him as a sport sire first. Or to someone who could train and compete with him while leaving him intact. He is so gorgeous.