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Is this a 10 walk? Or a lateral walk ? Or just unsound?

Coth: a place where a horse’s walk is either lateral and unsound or a 10.

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I don’t have a fully proven answer :frowning: It is something I have observed over many years. To me it feels like the horse is covering as much ground as possible with as little effort as possible, almost gaiting/pacing to keep balance, especially when somewhat excited or tense. So I guess my answer is biomechanical?

Back in the day (35+ years ago :o ) when I was taught how to fix it when I first started working with warmbloods, no-one explained the why beyond “tension” and “incorrect/impure gait” lol.

Adding to answer the last bit about pushing the gait to its limit - I don’t believe so. IME, these horses have a tendency to get there all by themselves. So, maybe the mere fact of carrying a rider is an influence, but one doesnt necessarily need to push a horse to get to the max to get it, they often get there all on their own on a loose rein walk.

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Meh. Coth: a place where someone can ask about a gait that doesn’t appear as advertised and get a variety of explanations, musings, better video of that exact horse’s gait, and someone complaining that people are at both ends of the spectrum about the initial video which shows a beautifully fluid, but incorrect (by the tiniest smidge, but incorrect nonetheless) gait. :wink:

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So show me where the horse was lame?

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I think it was pretty much established that the horse is either not lame or ““lame”” in a fashion (neuro) that can’t be judged from that video clip. Oh wait, we didn’t discuss that, but it is a possibility, so here it is now.

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How is this horse “lame in a fashion” or “neurological”?

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Quite possibly it is not, and no-one ever said it was lame in any kind of fashion. The OP asked if it was. No-one said it was. I just now speculated that some neurologically unsound horses can have a walk similar to the walk in the first video. Is a horse that walks like that always neuro? No.

I have personally owned both kinds - one that was :frowning: one that was questionable (but not definitively diagnosed because too many years ago) and one that isn’t. And have ridden quite a few other horses with that giant, gorgeous walk with a tendency to towards being lateral (af) that I’ll never know for sure one way or the other as we parted ways before there was any need to have them examined for any weirdness that may have led to any sort of diagnosis of neurological unsoundness.

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Actually no. That walk is wonderful to sit. I have ridden a horse with that walk. And the reach of that walk carries over to the other gaits,

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I suspect that Carl Hester is experienced enough to see a nice walk and award it accordingly.

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Of course. But was Carl Hester looking at the walk in the first video or the second or some other instance of the walk entirely. Highly, highly doubt he was referring directly to the walk shown in that first video because it is not a 10 by any stretch. The rhythm of that walk is off. While it is 4 beat, it is absolutely not 4 even beats.

No-one here is doubting Carl Hester’s qualifications in regards to being able to judge a walk. What is being questioned is the validity of that statement in relation to the video that was posted.

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I used to be a bit involved in the breeding world and spent some time both here and in Germany with warmblood registry inspectors, and also with young horse trainers. A few things I learned are:

1 – A horse with a superb walk was often described as “walking like a panther.” One particular inspector sometimes used the expression “she has a walk like a hooker.” Although I never saw an inspector give a horse a 10 for a walk, I did see some that scored 8s and 9s. The horse walks through the entire body - swinging hips, swinging topline, swinging shoulders, head bobbing slightly up and down in rhythm with the stride, everything loose and supple, in a pure and regular rhythm, displaying clear overtrack, and covering a lot of ground with each stride.

2 - It was/is often difficult to get that kind of walk in an inspection or show environment, as tension (whether from anxiety or excitement) negatively impacts the quality of the walk.

3 - The mere act of bringing a horse more into contact causes the horse to tighten certain muscles, which biomechanically affects the lossey-goosey quality of the walk.

4 - Horses with natural big and good walks need to be trained by riders with a fair amount of experience and feel, because those kinds of walks can be easily ruined by asking for too much contact, too much “collection” too soon. Even for a rider with a great deal of talent and finesse, it is near impossible to not affect the quality of a good slinky walk as s/he brings the horse more into contact with the bit.

I think these two videos reflect aspects of the above points. In the first video, the horse is being ridden into the bridle - and the quality of the walk is not as good as it is in the second video. In the second video, the horse is being allowed to stretch down into a long rein and show his natural walk. (This is not at all to imply that the rider is bad – I think she is doing quite a nice job of allowing this horse to show his natural gaits, esp. in the second video, although I wish that video showed some walk other than on a lengthened rein.)

That said, I had a homebred mare with a huge, ground-covering walk. She was barely 16.1h, but it was sometimes a bit of a challenge keeping up with her when walking her in hand (trying to shorten or slow her walk affected the quality). She could outwalk nearly every other horse in the barn, including the 17h big guys. And under saddle, she was so loosey-goosey and had so much swing that riding her walk would give my hips and lower back quite a workout – it was actually good physical therapy!

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The second walk is better than the first. Neither is lateral by any stretch. But what do i know? :upside_down_face:

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A lateral walk has two beats not 4. Elephants have lateral walks. Some horses do, but not this one. That first walk would get an 8 from me and twice on Sundays lol assuming the other requirements of the movement were met (accuracy, transition, etc) The second one is a nine or 10, again looking at the connective tissue as a modifier.
Lateral walks dont have a V.

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What I see in the first video is a horse with a naturally huge walk who isn’t ready to have it limited yet.

My thoroughbred regularly got 9s and 10s on his free walk when he was eventing. He was showing PSG-type collection in other gaits before he was ready to collect his walk and maintain rhythm. This horse is doing better than my guy did for years in video 1, but still has a ways to go and needs to be allowed more bascule of the neck to look really good. I’d say he’s just at an in between point with the walk, not ready to really collect it.
As merrygoround noted, that type of walk is wonderful to ride. It was always wonderful therapy if my back was bothering me after an injury years ago! He had an amazing extended trot and my trainer would put other people on him so they could understand what a collected canter and canter pirouettes were supposed to feel like.

Interestingly, my mare who was coming up behind him had a very lateral walk at times, but they shared a 300’ fence line they would walk together, and she developed a far better rhythm from matching him even before she was started under saddle. Her free walk rarely even got a 7, it just wasn’t naturally long and reaching. But her medium walk scored 8s and 9s many times. She also was the first horse on whom I ever piaffed, and you could practically see piaffe in her medium from her activity.

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If the walk was truly 2 beats the horse would be pacing.

The issue is really that the walk can be “lateralized” not truly lateral. That means that the footfalls are not truly a pure four beat but that there is a lateral tendency.

Just like a trot can be not exactly a gaited gait, but can be just slightly broken, not enough to be an actual fox trot. Or, differently, you can have DAP.

And a canter can have lateral tendencies. It can also break into 4 beats like in Western Pleasure.

When we say lateral we really mean lateralization or lateral tendencies.

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Lateral and pacing mean the same thing. Lateral means that the two legs on the same side move together - the same as in a pace.
I agree that lateral tendency means the 4 equal footfalls are broken - almost together. No V. Yes, I have seen truly lateral walks in horses. Not just tending to lateral.

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I had a German trainer who said I should be aiming for a “jungle cat” and on her retired GP horse, it felt like it. I definitely felt like I had no idea what I was doing but it was such a cool feeling. The rider definitely can make or break that. Kudos to Fire Kracka’s rider(s) for building up the strength, looking at the videos on their FB page, they are conscious of the power and relaxation needed.

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I’m pretty sure that @dotneko is a rated judge. (If it’s who I think it is, I have scribed for her in the past).

I scribe a lot and find myself viewing lateral tendencies in walks much harsher than most of the judges that I have scribed for. I was brought up as the walk needing to be like a metronome in it’s purity and that is one thing that I look for, as well as the overstep, looseness of the back, and the V that each side makes.

I rountinely see walks that I view as tending lateral that judges are giving 7.5 as scores.

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I will of course defer to you on the correct terminology. It sounds like “lateral” then is reserved for just the most extreme version of “lateral tendency” based on your description. Is that correct? I apologize for getting the terms wrong then, if so. Or maybe we are just more lax colloquially.

I admit i have seen (and helped fix) some badly lateral tending walks and none of them were remotely 2-beat. ETA: which i only mention because i find this threshold for calling a walk lateral interesting and would like to see an example

So to update my comments, i would say the first has a clear to bad lateral tendency and the second has a slight lateral tendency.

I went to look for an elephant video, and this one shows multiple elephants with a clearly 4 beat lateral tendency. I think the first vid might be “more lateral” than these elephants, which is why i called ot "lateral " at first.
https://youtu.be/91XxotaeGQM (start from the beginning and check the first 12 seconds - the link may send you to a timestamp further out)

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Here is a lateral walk.
What is a lateral Walk? And how to fix the lateral walk. - Bing video

Sorry this is dressagehub for those who dont want to give them clicks.

Perhaps better animal kingdom examples are the giraffe and the camel since their hind legs articulate more closely to the horses I believe.

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