Is this a 10 walk? Or a lateral walk ? Or just unsound?

[sascha]

@dotneko

But it isnt lateral. Nor is it lateral as heck (my correction to your comment). My job isnt to teach the rider what they are doing wrong in training. Im not giving a riding lesson. Im commenting on what is in front of me.

It’s probably good that you’re not giving a lesson, because:

@dotneko

A lateral walk has two beats not 4. Elephants have lateral walks. Some horses do, but not this one. That first walk would get an 8 from me and twice on Sundays lol assuming the other requirements of the movement were met (accuracy, transition, etc) The second one is a nine or 10, again looking at the connective tissue as a modifier.
Lateral walks dont have a V.

None of the animals (other than horses) listed in this thread have lateral walks by your definition. None. Giraffe has V and does not land both feet on the same side at the same time. Same for elephant. Same for camel.

What is the amount of uneven time between the lateral feet and the lateral pairs that is the change from even 4 beats to lateral? The rule book clearly says horses must have 4 even spaces between the footfalls in walk. At what point does uneven become

Also, if you’re not giving lessons, and even if you are, do not “correct” my English. I knew perfectly well what I was saying and how I was saying it.

While we’re on the “not giving lessons thing,” are we really marking multiple answer tests or are we trying to make the sport better with useful feedback? The defensive “I’M NOT GIVING A LESSON” (it’s not just you! and it’s not new, by any stretch) attitude is really disheartening and makes me kind of happy that my current beastie made it quite clear she prefers working at home, going to clinics, and spending time at various parks and that showing came way, way down the list of days she’d like to spend a day Most people don’t expect a lesson on their test sheets, but useful comments that actually pinpoint problems are so, so much more helpful than, “tension.”

[sascha]

I’m not sure what you’re explaining or why?

Although not currently showing, I’ve been around the block plenty of times over many years. My comment was about the quality of the comment that goes in the comment box (or the general remarks for that matter), not where it should go or what it was referring to.

[sascha]

@Unfforgettable

There is a huge difference between a lateral walk (which this is not) and a walk that is somewhat/slightly out of sequence.

Please explain exactly where that tipping point lies. It it that the difference between the hind leg and front leg landing can be no more than 1/4 quicker than the time between the front and hind legs? 1/2? 3/4? Or maybe it’s an exact number - 1/10sec?

Also, please define “out of sequence.” A walk that is out of sequence (the way I understand the word sequence) wouldn’t be a walk at all.

[Djones]

So here’s the TWH I referenced above.Please turn the volume DOWN, and I’m sorry about the logo on the middle.
He has moments in his medium walk (and his gaited walks, which SHOULD retain the pure 1 2 3 4 rhythm of a walk) that are good walks, and he has ptimes where he holds tension in his body and the result is him tending towards being pacey or tending toward lateral. He also adores curling behind the V to make me annoyed, but that’s not the discussion point.

Forever and a day I’ve gotten ‘pacey’ or ‘tense’ back on his test sheets. But without digging them all up, I don’t think anyone ever wrote ‘lateral’- though they are mere L grads, they had the scribes write down ‘pacey’ or ‘tense’ or ‘loss of rhythm.’

What is ‘wrong’ or ‘not accurate’ about any of those terms? Why would someone need to say ‘lateral’ for it to be accurate?

Chip at Greystone, June 2013 NWHA First Level, test one

[blue_heron]

@sascha

which is true, but doesn’t help the rider one bit to know wtf is being wrecked by the tension.

I was clarifying what was being wrecked by the tension. If the movement is the walk, and the judge writes in the comment box “tension affects quality,” then clearly the walk is the affected movement/gait? Quality is rhythm first, freedom, and engagement. It’s pretty clear to me.

[blue_heron]

“Pacey” is just a kind but no nonsense way of pointing out a lateral walk. IME judges try to get the appropriate point across in the nicest way possible, and, please don’t think I’m making a dig on you for a first level test, because I’m not at all, but in the lower levels, judges tend to reward riders for getting from A to B, in whatever fashion necessary. Especially at the lower levels, showing shouldn’t be discouraging. From what they see in your test, they’re making the assumption that the tension is what is having the greatest negative affect on your walk. They don’t know that he’s a TWH from the sheet of paper handed to them.

If you’ve ever scribed, you know what comes out of the judge’s mouth in the box is not always what gets written on the paper. Every time I scribe I get a few, “Don’t write that down.” There’s also Axel Steiner’s infamous noises of discontent-- those would be hard to write on a piece of paper.

[Scribbler]

@Warmblood1

A horse can have a 10 walk but not always walk a 10. This stallion is young and in a moment of tension and a lack of forwardness, the walk suffered. I don’t know any horses or riders that have executed a perfect walk every single time.

This is a very good point.

Also we don’t know the context the quote by Carl Hester was made. I don’t think he’s a judge. I don’t know how often he’s seen the horse. I can totally picture a generous and friendly BNT seeing that horse slinking around a warmup arena and saying “OMG that horse has a 10 walk,” meaning inherent or potential. That does not mean the horse and rider are going to score 10 at each and every competition in the walk, or not mess up the natural walk inadvertently and maybe temporarily in schooling.

If the owners or trainer posted that first video themselves with that caption, it does show they don’t have a great eye for the walk.

I think it’s 100 per cent true this horse has a big flowing walk with lots of potential for competition dressage.

I have no access to horses of this quality IRL. I’m at the low end of nice horses ( which is a big bump up from growing up at the low end of horses, period, not complaining). When I’ve needed to deal with broken gaits it’s more about getting a sucked back horse forward and tracking up. So it’s really interesting to see how a horse with a natural huge walk can also have issues with tension. I guess that’s why they say walk is an easy gait to ruin (while I’ve found it an easy gait to improve!!). It also gives me some ideas why these horses might tend to go into DAP so easily.

[Djones]

@blue_heron

“Pacey” is just a kind but no nonsense way of pointing out a lateral walk. IME judges try to get the appropriate point across in the nicest way possible, and, please don’t think I’m making a dig on you for a first level test, because I’m not at all, but in the lower levels, judges tend to reward riders for getting from A to B, in whatever fashion necessary. Especially at the lower levels, showing shouldn’t be discouraging. From what they see in your test, they’re making the assumption that the tension is what is having the greatest negative affect on your walk. They don’t know that he’s a TWH from the sheet of paper handed to them.

If you’ve ever scribed, you know what comes out of the judge’s mouth in the box is not always what gets written on the paper. Every time I scribe I get a few, “Don’t write that down.” There’s also Axel Steiner’s infamous noises of discontent-- those would be hard to write on a piece of paper.

You missed my point, sorry. That’s on me. My point is that as his rider, when I read pacey or tense or or or…I know what is meant. Some here seem to be sideways over the use of (or refusal to use) the word “lateral.”

Does this make it more clear to you? I don’t grasp why anyone is aggravated about “lateral” only being used to reference a pure pace (2 beats). It’s not the big deal some want it to be. We have other words to describe a walk that is not as clear 1 2 3 4 as it could be.

They actually do know he’s gaited this is an nwha test. There is no trot.

And yes I’ve scribed. I know what’s mumbled isn’t written

[Scribbler]

So I have seen exactly one TWH and two Paso Finos IRL in my entire life. And some Icelandics doing a tolt exhibition. Oh, and a bunch of OTSB that will break into a pace in turnout. But never enough to know what gaited is supposed to look like

I don’t even know what the intended gaits are in this TWH video test! I spent so much time getting my Paint mare to step up and lose her very slight fox trot tendency that gaiting horses just make me anxious to watch. It’s absolute ignorance on my part of course, but they are just very rare here in Canada. I’ve always wanted to try riding one.

So I can’t tell what’s tension and what’s gait here

[blue_heron]

Okay, you and I are arguing the same point. I’m struggling to keep up with who’s who on either side of the fence.

Yeah, I don’t know why the insistence that certain words need to be written on the paper. I also don’t get why people think that everything iffy with the movement gets written on the paper. No scribe or judge has time in the crazy Intermediare piaffe passage lines to write down each and every fault to the horse and rider. It’s not necessary. Riders usually go into the show ring knowing what their strengths and weaknesses are. Those who don’t are an exception to the rule. When the judge writes “More supple” in the box next to my changes, I know that she also means the horse was bracing against the hand, behind my leg, lost engagement, lacked straightness, and needed more separation in the hind legs. It’s just that having a the horse more supple over the topline would have fixed all of that.

I didn’t recognize the NWHA acronym, sorry! I was just thinking region or local association.

[Djones]

@Scribbler

So I can’t tell what’s tension and what’s gait here

If it doesn’t look like a normal 1 2 3 4 walk on steroids, just with more push and power from behind, it’s pacey. It is tense. It is braced. It is not good lol. But he is never purely lateral ( meaning pure pace).

[strangewings]

I have no familiarity with gaited breeds. Would you define a pace as a 2 beat lateral gait? What distinguishes a “2-beat lateral walk” from a pace? A moment of suspension maybe?

[Scribbler]

@Djones

@Scribbler

So I can’t tell what’s tension and what’s gait here

If it doesn’t look like a normal 1 2 3 4 walk on steroids, just with more push and power from behind, it’s pacey. It is tense. It is braced. It is not good lol. But he is never purely lateral ( meaning pure pace).

On the TWH video? I’m not sure in places if he is doing a fussy broken walk, a pissy broken slow trot, or a deliberate 4 beat gait of some kind. Since he’s at an actual show I have to assume he is within reasonable parameters for his breed standard. If you saw a TB come into an arena moving like that you’d figure he was one step off a huge explosion

I wouldn’t expect him to actually pace, no. I know from my reading that gaited horses move on a spectrum between diagonal trot and lateral pace, with the footfalls being broken up into 4 beats. From foxtrot at the diagonal end to rack at the other lateral end. But nobody wants a horse to actually pace under saddle. Only for harness racing. So I wouldn’t except to see a TWH actually pace.

The TWH we had at our barn for a while got my mare super excited when he went by the barns in a running walk because the footfall pattern was so wrong to her and sounded like a horse in panic.

[enjoytheride]

The person you are arguing with is an experienced judge. Are you saying she’s wrong and is scoring wrong?

[Djones]

@strangewings

have no familiarity with gaited breeds. Would you define a pace as a 2 beat lateral gait? What distinguishes a “2-beat lateral walk” from a pace? A moment of suspension maybe?

Yes. A pace is a pace is a pace. A two beat lateral walk IS a pace.

[jvanrens]

@strangewings

I have no familiarity with gaited breeds. Would you define a pace as a 2 beat lateral gait? What distinguishes a “2-beat lateral walk” from a pace? A moment of suspension maybe?

Yes, the pace is 2 beat lateral gait, like pacing Standardbreds do. The horse in the first video definitely isn’t doing a lateral gait compared to them.

[Djones]

@Scribbler

On the TWH video? I’m not sure in places if he is doing a fussy broken walk, a pissy broken slow trot, or a deliberate 4 beat gait of some kind. Since he’s at an actual show I have to assume he is within reasonable parameters for his breed standard

You are making this harder than it is, lol, it is not that hard to count out 1 2 3 4 as he moves. Anytime it is not that rhythm he is tense and the purity of his WALK gaits are disturbed.

[Scribbler]

@Djones

@Scribbler

On the TWH video? I’m not sure in places if he is doing a fussy broken walk, a pissy broken slow trot, or a deliberate 4 beat gait of some kind. Since he’s at an actual show I have to assume he is within reasonable parameters for his breed standard

You are making this harder than it is, lol, it is not that hard to count out 1 2 3 4 as he moves. Anytime it is not that rhythm he is tense and the purity of his WALK gaits are disturbed.

Is he meant to be walking all the time or is he also trotting or doing something else?

[Djones]

He medium walks. He flat walks. He running walks. He free walks. He canters. That’s it. This is 1st test 1, replace the trots with his walks.

I share this as an example of a horse who does get tense and it has an negative effect on his WALK gaits and it shows “lateral tending” WALK gaits that aren’t ever pure pace…which is what a lateral walk is…it’s a PACE. Judges and their scribes don’t have to convey the word Lateral in order to clue in the rider of the issues seen in the WALK gaits (including the Free walk and extended walk).

[strangewings]

Thank you, before this thread i would have only called it a pace and not considered a 2 beat gait a walk of any kind. I thought 4-beat was part of the definition of walk. I also thought “lateral gait” was a distinct use of the word “lateral” from “lateral walk”, where the former is a class of gaits i am unfamiliar with and the later is a walk (4 beat) with a broken rhythm (12__34 instead of 1234).