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Is this a sketchy seller or no?

Off Course
#1

Hi, I need to be talked down from my paranoid pedestal or told to run for the hills. I’m looking at a horse for sale-- I’ve had a bad experience before buying and would not like to replicate it but this seems like it could be a good opportunity or a nightmare. My current trainer is cooped up with a back injury but willing to watch videos and share thoughts w/ me and she agrees horse could be great for me if things work out. Sorry for the laundry list

The details:

  • Seven years old bay warmblood mare with papers and NICE bloodlines. Papers are real, USEF number is real, horse on the papers obviously horse in pics and videos.
  • Mare has great movement and would be a great hunter prospect
  • Mare is advertised as a project horse and seller is very up front about it. Talked to the seller on the phone and she said she had turned interested ppl down because they were amateurs or said they were nervous riders-- this made me feel ok about the seller because somebody who just wanted to dump a bad horse might take advantage of just anybody
  • Seller has been very communicative and accomodating, has sent me extra pictures and we’ve actually chatted about mare besides basic questions. I don’t get real sketchy vibes from seller.
  • Seller says mare was started HJ and sold from breeder to an amateur HJ rider and developed bad behaviors. HJ AA sold mare to another breeder. Breeder put a few rides on mare, didn’t breed mare, and sold to seller as a project a year later.
  • Merrie has only been for sale since the beginning of the month
  • Seller was very upfront about the HJ AA owner reporting problem behavior-- horse is very very green but seller says horse has never offered anything dirty with her. Said she was told that HJ AA said horse tried to run her over on the ground a couple of times and bucked a few times.
  • Seller suggests mare was difficult for HJ AA because quality of riding had probably gone down and mare was pushed too hard too fast
  • Seller said she did not ride mare much because she had a knee replacement
  • Seller is selling mare because she has multiple projects-- she does have multiple horses for sale and I’ve seen their ads-- seller is not great at advertising
  • Seller also very upfront with x rays from HJ AA from early 2021/results of her own PPE earlier this year

The things that feel a little strange:

  • Horse is priced under value even with its history-- seller could probably get just as much or more selling horse as a broodmare
  • The fact that horse has apparently shown no problem behaviors with second owner or current owner?
  • That’s really it?

Because I’m crazy, I’ve:

  • Confirmed that seller works for a BNT trainer in her area and has a long history of breeding sport horses, and eventing, and competed in RRP at one point
  • Reached out to person who started the horse and asked her what she thought of horse. This person said the horse was great for her and sent along videos but said after mare sold she went downhill. Said she thought it was because of a lifestyle change but couldn’t make a guess of how the horse was now. Was definitely a little hesitant to talk to me but I messaged her out of the blue. (seller and starter’s stories line up)
  • Followed Facebook paper trail and USEF number to find both AA HJ owner and thought about messaging her too-- HJ AA is an equine vet with a very short USEF record
  • Found advertisement for horse from each owner but couldn’t find an ad from HJ AA. Not sure how third owner (person who bought her to be a broodmare) found the mare.
  • Found/was sent videos of each owner riding horse except for HJ AA-- nothing even a little concerning in any of the videos
  • Found seller’s old COTH posts :joy:
  • I can’t find who HJ AA’s trainer was/is

What else is sketchy about this? I did not feel weird about it until I made plans to see the mare. Maybe I am just nervous and worried about past experiences. Merrie is a real cutie and could be a great fit but obviously I don’t want a lemon or to get hurt. At the same time, papers are nice enough that I feel like I could sell mare as a broodmare again if she really was a problem.

I don’t call myself a professional but have given lessons, people have paid me to ride horses for them, and when I was horseless I didn’t have a problem getting catch rides. Green ponies are not a problem to me and Idk how to feel about seller reporting that mare bucked with previous owner because all horses buck… if I sold my mare (who unfortunately passed last year and why I’m looking for a new horse) I would have had to disclose that she would buck when she felt she or her rider were too unbalanced and she has bucked people off (even me). I’ve ridden plently of horses who bucked under saddle with me or with other people and I would get on them again without fear and I would not say these horses are dangerous. I believe that a sensitive horse and a mare would buck off an unbalanced rider and I really do believe some horses and some people just don’t match or get along. I also know how difficult some horses can be when they’re not managed right, but I don’t know how horse was being managed at this time. Merrie could have had ulcers and no TO, badly fitting saddle, etc.

I don’t post on here a lot but feel like I need an unbiased opinion from the hive mind. Sorry again for the really long post!

#2

sort of like when that used car salesmen in the oddly colored suit tells you This car was only driven to church by a very nice little old lady

I suggest you see the horse in person, my kids are profession photographers who can make a dog look like a very horse in a video or photo

Seeing would at least allow you to take notice of its ground manors or lack of

2 Likes
#3

The broodmare market is next to non-existent, I wouldn’t expect a seller to go for that market if the horse was sound. While embryo sales are taking off for the true top level mares, anything that isn’t from a stellar mare family and/or an UL mare itself won’t go for much more than low four figures.

I saw an open, repo-sound, incredibly well bred mare (eventing) with very desirable bloodlines sit on the market for months. She was originally listed for $10,000, but recently her breeder marked her down to $2k for uncomplicated sale. Just to give you a taste of the market: it’s not really hopping especially not for mares that failed their careers as riding horses. This mare was half to a Olympic horse, and the sire was by a stallion every eventer seems to be breeding to.

The very good mares don’t even tend to hit the market: private purchases are arranged from breeder to breeder or they are leased out for a year, or embryos collected, etc.

You know, it’s anyone’s guess why the behaviors reported from the past owner aren’t present yet. It could be riding style, it could be management, it could be anything. Even my own horse, in my own program which I control, rides very differently for a petite timid ammy than he does for me. I would go into this with eyes open and assume those behaviors are still there, they just haven’t been needed yet.

No, not all horses buck. Some horses do, and there is a difference between a playful hop on a crispy fall morning and an honest-to-god “Get Off Me Now” buck, the latter of which surprises many competent riders and ends them in the hospital.

I’d say trust your gut, and ask your trainer what she thinks. And don’t make your mind up until you see this mare. Watch how she behaves when you tack up, and have the seller or the seller’s student ride her first if you’re suspicious.

If the seller or a student won’t ride the horse first, that’s all I need to know.

16 Likes
#4

It sounds like OP IS going to see the horse.

I don’t have much to say except that I’m also trying to buy right now and I might hire you to do some sleuthing for me :rofl:

Obviously some posters are going to disagree, but I’m with you on the bucking thing. I too have a mare who will throw both a “feeling fresh” buck and a “GTFO me” buck depending on the person. I don’t think she’s ever given ME a “GTFO me” buck, but she’s certainly bucked a few people off. Some just don’t suffer fools well. I too also understand what you mean when you say you’re not the stereotypical AA but still an AA… I think that’s many people on this forum.

The only thing I might shrug at is why if this person works for BNT, why they can’t network to sell the horse through them.

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#5

Horses do fall through the cracks.

I would vet vet vet for the kinda of things that cause intermittent behaviour problems. Ulcers back pain wolf teeth etc.

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#6

This is all great advice! And, when and if you do a PPE, pull blood.

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#7

The OP said the seller had a knee replacement, which could partially explain the haste in selling–maybe she just doesn’t want to take any chances at this point in her riding career–and I think “vetting” the vibe of the seller as well as the horse is just as critical here. Maybe she’s got other stuff going on and just wants an uncomplicated sale, or maybe the horse gives her a vibe she wants to move out of her barn quickly.

1 Like
#8

Had another thought… if the timeline is what I think it is, mare would have been 4 or 5 with the amateur owner. 4 and 5 year olds can be notoriously testy. I don’t think horses that young are always suitable for amateurs, even good ones, especially when one experience creates a circle of fear.

4 Likes
#9

Lol I was thinking the same thing, those are some pretty amazing sleuthing skills!

I’m pretty jaded at this point on horse shopping and I generally think if something seems off it probably is. My question is why did current owner take this horse on as a project when they were having a knee replacement? That’s not the kind of thing that generally happens out of the blue. And if seller is well connected in the industry that is also a red flag to me.

But if you are curious, go see the mare, there’s no harm in it. You don’t need to sit on her if you don’t like the vibe when you get there.

100% this.

When I was shopping I went to look at a mare with an odd story. She wasn’t advertised, trainer I knew connected me. Mare was fancy, imported with nice bloodlines. But somewhere along the line things went sideways and the trainer that imported her for ammy client stopped riding her. Now with a new trainer who was restarting her and ammy client just wanted to find her the best home. Described as a nice horse that had been pushed too fast.

I sleuthed a bunch, found the sales ad and video from Europe, found more video on current owner’s instagram. Found gushing posts from previous trainer on FB.

The mare was just around the corner from another horse I was looking at so we figured why not take a look. My trainer came with me, we watched the mare being lunged and left. There was so much baggage to unpack there it was a non starter.

Sometimes seeing the horse in person for 5min will answer more questions than all the internet sleuthing you can do.

7 Likes
#10

You’ve had some really good advice already. And I’d certainly echo the point that you can’t really decide anything without going to see the horse. It may be that, once you see the horse, it’s instantly obvious that the horse is not for you. Or it may be that the horse is an absolute dream and you want to pursue a PPE.

The story you narrated did not instantly scream “scam artist” to me. But I’m a pretty naive sort. I do think you’ll get a better sense of the seller (as well as the horse) by going to see the horse, watching how the seller (or her student) interacts with the horse, rides the horse before your get on, etc. It would be helpful to take someone with you; if your instructor can’t go, bring along a horsey friend who can take some videos of you riding the horse.

In a purchase like this, where you’re buying a live animal which you’ll have a lot of close interactions with and with whom you’ll want to develop a partnership, I put a lot of weight on your own sense of “feel.” How does the horse make you feel? Happy? Wary? Puzzled? And then go from there.

Good luck!

2 Likes
#11

the first horse I bought was bought primarily because of the way the mare looked at me, her eyes followed us as we looked at other horses, we left but came back to buy her, kept her all of her life passing at 28

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#12

I have been roasted on the spit by a shady horse seller before, so here’s my take as a very, very cynical buyer.

Number one order of business: Let’s separate fact from fiction here. The things that are facts/your own opinion based on video/pics are in green. Fiction/hearsay/other people’s opinion/your HOPES are in red. My comments in blue if needed.

So, looking at the above, the facts that you have verified are much fewer than things that are your hopeful interpretation of the seller’s words, or COULD be outright lies, as you’ve no way to verify.

I would start with finding the previous owner and getting the straight dope. If your gut feels like something is up, it probably is.

Sadly selling a horse with issues as a broodmare isn’t cut and dried - kissing spines and a host of other issues that can cause riding problems can be hereditary… :frowning:

Best of luck to you!

3 Likes
#13

I’m not sure what you mean by this… are you being critical of Seller or saying it is good that she is not selling to an unsuitable rider? I suppose someone could say this knowing it would give people confidence she wasn’t lying-- but I did ask what kind of people were trying the horse…

There are a few things I got wrong or was not clear when I wrote original post-- sorry. I went back to my notes I took talking to Seller on the phone. Seller has a long term knee injury and reinjured it earlier this summer (this is why she did not ride mare-- she said mare had nothing to do with it and there is a FB post from earlier this year where she said she reinjured her knee doing hay. Seems like a lot of backlogging just to lie about this) so is considering knee replacement knowing she would need some time off. She is an older but not “old” person. She also does not work for BNT in a riding way-- she seems more like a barn secretary or does bookkeeping. She also has her own farm and seems the type that aquires a lot of horses and occasionally gets rid of a few at a time. She also has a few facebook posts about retiring or retraining OTTB from a “rescue” on her farm.

@rulex I am a very cynical person. I think to a fault sometimes. I never believe what anyone tells me and sometimes I feel like thw world is out to get me. I’m not good at trusting my gut because I will always be on the conservative side. I feel like I can talk myself into being scared of anything. Don’t know if that’s what I’m doing now.

@Xanthoria I don’t agree with some things you highlighted in red that they are not facts. Like that the seller is not up front about mare being a project horse or not being accomodating to my asks? Also her story is corroborated by person who worked with horse previously and a pretty good paper trail on Facebook that goes back a # of years. So I don’t think the timeline of the story is wrong-- of course Seller is speculating about some of it. Don’t know that I should reach out to HJ AA owner who said they had a problem with horse-- it is probably a sensitive subject and I don’t trust them to be honest if they think there could be repercussions for sharing. Esp because she’s a professional. At some point if you cannot trust anything that is said about horse then you will only be riding a horse you bred yourself…

X rays were straight from vet that did them. Pasterns and hoof, back, hocks, knees, and stifles. I am going to see the merrie this weekend.

2 Likes
#14

Hey you do you. You asked for input (“I need to be talked down from my paranoid pedestal or told to run for the hills.”), you got it.

1 Like
#15

I am not arguing with you, only providing more information or saying what I think so that others may have thoughts too

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#16

I asked this in another thread but nobody honored my ask: is it weird to reach out to previous owners of a horse? How many before you’re just being creepy?

#17

I feel like horses do slip between the cracks, but that’s more likely with homebred horses or backyard horses. Kid stops riding or no one wants to back the 2 year old and 5 years later the farm is sold and need to rehome horse.

It’s less likely that a quality horse circulating in the world of competent trainers is going to be sidelined unless there is somethung significant and troubling in soundness and/or behavior.

It’s true that ammies can take on too much horse and get spooked by a crow hop or an incident on the ground. But in this case the ammie was surrounded by trainers, I think? Most h/j ammies have trainer help. Why wasn’t it sorted out at the start?

Lots of trainers can take for instance a good minded OTTB and have him ready for a riding home in say 4 months.

Thinking about this mare. Let’s say if she was on track as a nicely bred WB well started and ready for an ammie rider in a program, she’d be say conservatively $25 000. But she’s being sold for say $5000. If any of her owners thought they could send her out for 4 months boot camp with a young trainer, for say $5000, and then basically quintuple her price, why haven’t they done this? Or sold her to a young pro as a prospect? It sounds like neither the breeder nor the most recent trainer owner want to do anything with her.

I don’t think the seller is necessarily sketchier than the average horse dealer :slight_smile: but I would not be surprised if the mare ends up having some deeply rooted dangerous or unpleasant behavior that might not be easily fixed. And that behaviour is likely linked to a physical issue you may never diagnose. Like the mare I observed at a safe distance whose dangerous spin and bolt was linked to impacted wolf teeth. Took people years to figure that out.

So I would go in with wide open eyes, pay attention to everything, and not dismiss seemingly minor things like head tossing or hunchy back or pissy attitude. Things you might not worry about in a horse you knew was basically safe.

For me, I feel like I can fix ground manners but I don’t have the nerve for explosions under saddle.

9 Likes
#18

I think this is what Seller would like to do now… and was going to flip horse herself but says she got hurt. Like I said there is a long story here that includes everything except HJ AA/vet and can all be traced via FB or a google. I don’t know that HJ AA had trainer-- I can’t find her trainer that I know of.

Original breeder seems to have a few foals that did very well in local/regional shows but was not a huge breeder. Maybe one foal per year. Most recently she is breeding QH. No idea why second breeder got her or sold her-- mare is nothing like any of the other horses she is breeding. Also don’t know what second breeder paid for her or sold her for. Seller now is asking not very much for a ‘quality’ horse, but not ‘dear god someone take this horse’ $ either.

Only asking because like many people I’ve bought an unsuitable horse before. mostly it was just a heartbreak in the end but I was not hurt. I am not arguing with a healthy dose of skepticism

#19

I think in this kind of situation it depends, do you want to take a risk on a “project” that might take a long time or never get fixed? Or do you want one good horse with a good chance of doing some schooling and then competing in a safe and reasonable time frame?

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#20

I think the real question is to ask yourself about what you want in your next horse.

Exactly. This mare sounds like a project. Is that what you want to sign up for?

If you want a horse you can ride on your own tomorrow, safely, then focus your search on that even if you have to sacrifice gaits or competitiveness to find that in your budget.

I’ve also been down the road of buying an unsuitable horse. It sucked and was heartbreaking and the only reason I didn’t get hurt is because I put my trust in the trainer I worked with and they kept me safe.

Now I have a not so fancy horse but one I totally trust and I can take anywhere and try anything with. There are a couple of women at my barn with much fancier horses they can’t ride and both of them have made comments on how they envy my sensible horse.

2 Likes

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