Yikes, yeah that’s not normal. How long has your farrier been doing her?
She’s more sore on the right, somehow. Honestly though she’s the most sore behind, which is why we went looking at her stifle but she went from normal but a little weak to footsore and NQR at the end of last month. Pretty much coincides with the last time she was trimmed.
She’s uncomfortable enough that the vet thought wobblers at first, but the vet is known for going to the worst case scenario right away. IMO the vet thinks the stifle plus footsoreness is what was making her look so bad. She looks lame, but nowhere in particular.
That surprises me. With the amount of rotation in the left front, I would expect acute lameness on the left front and a positive reaction to hoof testers.
Was the founder recent? How old is the mare?
I have to say that there being other things going on soundness wise in addition to the LF is daunting. It’s going to take a lot to get her comfortable.
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Positive hoof testers on both fronts but worse on the right. I’m confident the xrays are accurately labeled (unless my vet did them wrong).
Mare is 6, OTTB, and if she foundered under my care I’d say it happened within a month or two. My journal says she went from feeling normal with a few hitches in the stifle sometimes to off enough to be worried within that time. Her feet don’t have classic founder appearance, just a tiny dish if I hold a ruler to them. She came up sore after her last trim as well as one of my other oldies.
It’s probably a good idea to try to incorporate both of the current threads so anyone responding incorporates the info not only on the feet but the stifle too. It sounds like there is some inflammation and damage to the stifle as well. No suggestions other than you will likely be needing to treat both the stifle and these hind feet to get your mare feeling better. I’m so sorry as that’s a lot for 6 yr old.
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I started a founder specific thread thinking that while it’s related (the same horse) it is different than the stifle. I am sorry if that was an incorrect choice!
I have xrays of the hind feet too. I’m going to post them here as I’ll stop posting on the other thread and just use this one since I have had the vet out.
It’s not about being correct or incorrect- I didn’t mean to imply you did anything wrong. Just that the horse has a lot going on and it’s helpful in responding to know the whole picture.
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Oh okay! Yeah I didn’t want to make people read through the whole thing of me waffling about.
The stifle is clear on X-ray but fibrous and something else on ultrasound. My local vet is consulting with my “big” vet and maybe the state school. For now she is on paddock rest and bute with pads in her front boots. I also stopped her Ultium and switched back to just kalm and easy and hay. I’m scared I foundered her with the ultium but it was working so well for one of my other skinny OTTBs and I didn’t have any indication of founder or rotation externally. Not even the vet or farrier saw anything and she was on the ultium since March or April
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It’s very likely not the grain. Don’t beat yourself up or think you caused anything. Who the heck knows with horses?? They are mysteries to even vets.
Cut out all grain and get her on soaked hay and the emergency diet.
Her left is more rotated than her right. Both show rotation. Based on the xrays, her toes look long and heels look run under/crushed.
Horses can get laminitis from other things than grain, but once it happens they can be more prone to have a reoccurrence. So following the diet afterwards is important to reduce inflammation and prevention.
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Is it possible theoretically, for a horse to “road founder” due to trimming too short and no other particular reason? To be clear I’m not blaming my farrier but the lameness and footsoreness did pop up right after she was last trimmed. Probably a coincidence but she wasn’t the only one who came up sore. Unless there’s something in my pasture that’s triggered this?
In my experience a very short correct trim might make a horse temporarily more reactive to rocks and gravel but a correct trim with heels taken back and toes short is never a mechanical cause of founder. Indeed, I’ve been told that a horse with a short correct trim is less likely to develop chronic founder (have the coffin bone sink) even if they do experience accute laminitis (inflammation of the hoof structure)
However, the long toe/ run forward heel is both a risk factor for chronic founder, and to some extent a symptom of chronic founder. I’m not so experienced at reading overall hoof structure from an x-ray, but another poster has pointed out that the toe here looks long and the heels under run. I could speak definitively to that from side and solar photos.
Any dish in the hoof wall is cause for concern.
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The two cases of “road” founder I’ve seen were horses who were ridden on very hard ground- one barefoot and one shod. Scribbler’s post above is great information.
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Okay. The ground here is hard but I’ve not ridden her more than 30 minutes walking and a little trotting with boots on and she lives out with boots on too.
I don’t have pictures but I would say her soles are completely flat and her toes definitely look a little long. Not sure there’s much height to be taken down but certainly long so I’m sure the farrier was just doing what they thought they could. She came with really long feet that hadn’t been touched in 6 months at least and seem likely to have been trimmed long and low before that.
I tried her in regular shoes for one cycle but she kept throwing them so I went to bare feet and boots.
I think I noticed a little dishing recently but it also looked a bit like a long toe. Maybe I knew something was wrong because I bought some firm pads for her on a whim not long after.
Like I said my vet and farrier and everyone who has seen her feet weren’t thinking anything but thin TB soles until I asked for xrays.
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Can we see side view and solar pics?
I hear about “flat sole” a lot but have never dealt with it personally or seen it in horses with otherwise correct hooves. My impression as a foot interested amateur is that flat soles are not a mere conformation fluke but actually a symptom of hoof function impairment. It makes sense the sole would get flatter as the coffin bone drops, and that the horse is in discomfort from both the sole hitting ground and the coffin bone hitting ground.
Thus there isn’t “normal TB flat feet” though there could easily be a population of TB showing hoof dysfunction from previous management (on or off track). Flat feet in itself is something to investigate.
It’s not uncommon for shod horses to develop long toes and run forward heels over time, and flat soles because the toe is stretching forward. Shoes will mitigate the discomfort, but you can’t get away with this barefoot. Obviously a good farrier won’t let this happen, but I see it enough whether owners postpone shoeing or farriers don’t care.
Pardon the zoom and scribbles but this was taken just after her last trim. I don’t have another angle right now and it is hard to tell how flat it is here. But now I can lay a ruler across her sole and make contact almost all the way across. This is left front.
She got here with very tall and long feet, so the change from too much height and depth to not much at all has happened since I got her.
I’m looking at the few pictures I have of her and another horse I have that show their hooves somewhat. The other horse I think looked better when I had him at another farm with another farrier though his lifestyle barely changed. This horse looks better in some ways and worse in others obviously.
Gosh if this is partially due to my farrier’s trimming I’m going to be upset. They came highly recommended and I have seen other horses they do at my neighbor’s that look fine to me but I’m not a farrier and can only really point out very wrong things. Like this mare being so overdue at first.
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How long has this farrier been trimming him?
The hinds are negative (RH) and flat (LH) NPA, which is almost always a trimming issue, and nearly always takes months, like full growth cycle-ish.
The LF has slight rotation, the RF doesn’t. You can tell because the LF has a widening distance between the face of P3, and the face of the hoof wall, as you go top to bottom. The RF is pretty darn equal top to bottom.
That said - what’s the deal with the 2 different LF rads? They almost look like they were taking with 2 different machines, or 2 different settings, or something. The 2nd one (3rd pic) shows a lot less deviation from the hoof wall, than the first pic does
It’s really unfortunate your vet didn’t mark the coronet band (though thankfully we can see it), and the true apex of the frog, to really see if there’s any sinking (I don’t think so, if any, maybe a tiny bit), and sole depth. Did the vet measure sole depth at all somehow?
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