Is this half-Arab a low-level dressage prospect?

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8521433]
Would he be free considering he has had surgery twice and needs retraining?

He has very nice conformation and would be quite suitable for both dressage and arabian sport horse classes, however are you capable of taking on a remedial retraining project?

He is quite well bred, but he is bred on the hot side and is bred to be up headed and a real knee flinger, not necessarily things suitable for dressage, but great for being a park horse. You can see he is quite sensitive and spooky in the video, although this will taper off when he is in a different program it could be something to consider. Are you comfortable with a very large hot and athletic horse?

In addition to the throat surgery how are his legs? Park horse training can be intensive and I would check his legs as well.

I do like that he has show experience.[/QUOTE]

Not seeing the knee flinging in the earlier loose video at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XapnTTi46SM

Agree with everything else you posted.

Well, there are a few decent Saddlebreds out there…

http://saddlesbredsarefun.com/Images/SB%20Dressage/New%20dressage2006/Jackie%20Robbins%20bart%20460.jpg

http://saddlesbredsarefun.com/Images/SB%20Dressage/My%20Privateer%20640.jpg

Good training does help immensely, but having the right mind in a horse trumps a lot.

[QUOTE=mjhco;8533738]
I have had several Arabian / Saddlebred crosses over the years. A couple before the NSH registry was started. [/QUOTE]

Someone told me that the handful of people who started the NSH registry had Arabian stallions and bought really cheap Saddlebred mares. I mean, $200 mares. Is that right?

The NSH registry was created to differentiate the Arab - Saddlebred cross from other half-arabs with the plan of a non-set tailed saddleseat riding horse that could also show in Arab shows.

It was an outlet for Saddlebred mares that were not throwing Kentucky State Fair caliber foals to have a marketable foal. And for Arabian stallions to have taller offspring than usual, with longer necks.
It was also an outlet for less typy Arabian mares to have larger, more marketable foals.

Note that non-high performance Saddlebred broodmares have gone for very low prices historically, since there just aren’t that many buyers of Saddlebred broodmares.

It was originally embraced by both of the purebred breeds as a new way to market horses and add value to the already popular Arab x Saddlebred.

During subsequent economic recessions, the registry is pretty much not really active, but the name NSH is still used to refer to the cross.

Mr. Ed was basically an NSH.

I’ve owned 1/2 SB, 1/2 Arabs and they can be very good or very mediocre, depending on the parents, just like any breeding.

Would one say that the meh race-winning or meh racehorse producing Thoroughbreds used in WB breeding like Ladykiller and Rantzau were ‘cheap’?

And is ‘cheap’ in a down market any indication of actual breeding worth for horses?

[QUOTE=mvp;8533917]
Someone told me that the handful of people who started the NSH registry had Arabian stallions and bought really cheap Saddlebred mares. I mean, $200 mares. Is that right?[/QUOTE]

Originally NSH was open to any registered half Arabian for the first year or so. I had 2 1/2 Arabian 1/2 Saddlebreds at the time. Registered one of them because he was of the expected type. I had a WINNING 1/2 Arab mare but she was NOT the type that was envisioned so I did not register her.

There were bloodline restrictions early on after that first year come one come all option. The sires had to be descended from a specific list of stallions. One saddlebred stallion had been purchased by the founders. He was pretty. But not of the popular type you saw at the World Championships.

There were strict restrictions on types of classes at the original NSH shows (that paid big $$$). Originally all classes were purely saddle seat types of classes. Attire was very strick. This all has relaxed some.

Over the years the quality of breeding stock varied significantly depending on who was doing the breeding. Yes, there were some lower valued mares and stallions involved. But there was and still are some FABULOUS saddlebreds and Arabians being bred.

[QUOTE=mvp;8533917]
Someone told me that the handful of people who started the NSH registry had Arabian stallions and bought really cheap Saddlebred mares. I mean, $200 mares. Is that right?[/QUOTE]

Back in the 1980s, you could have gotten a lot of fairly good ASB broodmares for $200 a piece if you knew where to look. I visited Lasma East back when they were standing Key Largo (ASB) and some pretty fancy Arabians that were nominated NSH stock, and there was nothing cheap about that place. I believe Vestys were in on the ground floor too. They now also import and breed DHHs. I believe they know where to get some pretty darn good ASBs on the cheap as well.

There is a lot of shystering that goes on in the breeding world and that one was no exception. Just because a horse is inexpensive doesn’t mean it’s cheap.

Anyone remember the RENAI registry?
Or Show Horse Alliance?

Sorry, off topic. Carry on

Same folks, new money :wink:

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8533808]
Not seeing the knee flinging in the earlier loose video at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XapnTTi46SM

Agree with everything else you posted.[/QUOTE]

Park horses are supposed to jerk their knees up really high. “breaks above level” is a common selling point in sales ads for saddleseat horses. There is whole range of classes for horses with different levels of knee flinging, this horse is bred to be at the top of those classes.

It is something to consider based on suitability for dressage and ease of training, does someone like the horse enough to start with a conformational and training disadvantage?

I don’t see it as much in the loose video, although it would be a fairly bad video if you were advertising him as a park horse so I think a lot of the movement is trained in and can be trained out, especially without bungees and setting rigs.

Bred for knees and hocks is like bred for racing speed or bred for jumping…

some are born with it and many fall short. If it isn’t there it doesn’t matter if they were bred for it.

Saddlebred
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/97/e5/97/97e597f67228506f68bebf7acd433084.jpg

1/2 Saddlebred
http://forums.arabianbreeders.net/uploads/monthly_12_2008/post-69-1230511266.jpg

Oldenburgs
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/horses-bay-white-tobiano-pinto-german-oldenburg-warmblood-foal-trotting-next-to-his-mother-bay-german-oldenburg-mare-41752724.jpg

http://warmblood-sales.com/images20152/44826-ID.jpg

Holsteiner
http://siec.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/WN011015.jpg

Trakehner
http://www.trakehners-international.com/nms/picts/NMS2013/foals/78_kavango.jpg

While you can ‘develop’ a lot, there is still no ‘knee flinging’ to begin with on the horse originally posted, regardless of the breeding.
half Arab half Saddlebred
http://www.mirageltd.com/photos/foals/2010/incredible-knight-02.jpg

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8534830]
The NSH registry was created to differentiate the Arab - Saddlebred cross from other half-arabs with the plan of a non-set tailed saddleseat riding horse that could also show in Arab shows.

It was an outlet for Saddlebred mares that were not throwing Kentucky State Fair caliber foals to have a marketable foal. And for Arabian stallions to have taller offspring than usual, with longer necks.
It was also an outlet for less typy Arabian mares to have larger, more marketable foals.

Note that non-high performance Saddlebred broodmares have gone for very low prices historically, since there just aren’t that many buyers of Saddlebred broodmares.

It was originally embraced by both of the purebred breeds as a new way to market horses and add value to the already popular Arab x Saddlebred.

During subsequent economic recessions, the registry is pretty much not really active, but the name NSH is still used to refer to the cross.

Mr. Ed was basically an NSH.

I’ve owned 1/2 SB, 1/2 Arabs and they can be very good or very mediocre, depending on the parents, just like any breeding.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for correcting and enlarging the history lesson I had.

I still stand by my original assessment: If I could have the NSH mind of this gelding I ride in a better-built horse, he’d be a really great animal. And his degree of “want to” and intelligence plus “latching onto the ‘Yes!’” would probably really surprise the horsemen who work in TB- and WB-based disciplines.

And FWIW, I think this horse’s trainability was either wildly underestimated by the “Main Ring Arab” trainers who had him before me…or they were just mediocre trainers and not somehow unaccustomed to this kind of mind by their discipline. I can’t say, as I don’t know much about Main Ring Arabian showing.

I think this horse’s trainability makes him a little “vulnerable” in the ego; he worries if he doesn’t know the answer. It can be easier to train a horse who cares just a little bit less about getting it right. As much as I grew up in and like those English disciplines build around the TB and, later, the WB (infused with enough TB blood), this horse’s need for a little bit of hand-holding might cause those people to mis-ride him.

mvp

Sensitive horses are indeed more difficult to ride because they will react to every thought the rider has, let alone actually giving a larger aid.
There are some WB at the higher levels with this sort of temperament and they are pro rides for sure. Some Saddlebreds have this, but not so many.

The important difference is the willingness factor: I’ve had Saddlebreds that trained as if they were recalling former lives instead of learning something new. Quite uncanny. And definitely spoils you for less gifted minds.

There are plenty of individual variables within Saddlebreds, of course. Some cannot take a joke, some seem to make jokes themselves.
The ones that think too much can become panicy and need ‘hand holding’, and there are some that put forward the ‘ear spear’ and will go through fire for you.

If you like the temperament, you look for ways to gymnasticize the horse.
If you like the movement potential, you look for ways to manage the temperament flaws.

no horse is ALL THAT.

-Saddlebreds are people horses since the American revolution. And I’m not a good enough rider to reach the potential they have.

I am seriously amused by how the European dressage breeding has drifted toward higher action, higher set necks, and hotter horses. Seeing some similarities, there.

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8536398]

-Saddlebreds are people horses since the American revolution. And I’m not a good enough rider to reach the potential they have.

I am seriously amused by how the European dressage breeding has drifted toward higher action, higher set necks, and hotter horses. Seeing some similarities, there.[/QUOTE]

^Ditto.
Except the Euro WB do not as consistently have the same type of brain as the Saddlebred/Arab/Morgan types.
Sensitive but sane and people oriented is a very different ride than the sensitive but explosive and ‘forget’ you…

[QUOTE=mvp;8532943]

ETA: This horse the problem that older bosses ascribe to 20-something whippersnappers: They needed to be praised and reassured all.the.time. Sometimes, I’d like a horse to just Man Up and Do A Job.

And interestingly, this horse feels hot, but it 100% reliable outside and in new situations. Whatever he feels like or however much hysteria he brings to detail-oriented, posture-changing dressage training, he makes good decisions and is quite rideable when other horses that are good at ring work become unhinged and a bit stupid/non-self-preserving.[/QUOTE]

Perfectly describes my mare! She will try to sort out, talk you into something else, or just plain show you that she doesn’t care for what you are asking…but once you get her settled it’s amazing! She feels like a Ferrari at times, and has been described as “hot”, but when you get her in a situation that would cause another horse to have a melt-down…she is completely in charge. Love her dearly! She has taught me so much and to be a quiet, connected rider! It’s hard to believe what we have been through together and how now at 16, she is finally getting it and becoming quite a little dressage horse. :slight_smile:

https://youtu.be/CbDZ7rK5H6M

https://youtu.be/1HrWZ92yolA

I’d like one of these

Arabian dressage practice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-Z86tBLyzw

Saddlebred dressage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeygE2wdCkE

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8537237]

Saddlebred dressage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeygE2wdCkE[/QUOTE]

Is this CB06’s horse? Is she on COTH?
she posted on UDBB, I might be wrong but it looks very similar!

Agreed. this horse was bred for the Saddleseat divisions (1/2 Arabian, 1/4 Saddlebred, 1/4 DHH). He’s short in front in that photo, but even so he clearly does not have the natural Saddleseat trot.

However, he has a sibling who did well enough in those divisions and his seller mentioned she had some people interested in him based on his bloodlines–but even at a ridiculously low price no one picked him up and tried to aim him at that ring. Because he just doesn’t have the movement he was bred to have.

He has plenty of other things you would expect from his breeding, though. Good and, in some cases, less advantageous for the types of things I would like to do.

I would pick up another project like him in the future over a purpose-bred horse, though, because he is fun in a way few other horses I have ridden are. But he needs a certain type of rider, and I am having to learn to be that type of rider. He’s not for everyone, that’s for sure.

Saddlebred dressage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeygE2wdCkE

[QUOTE=cuatx55;8537249]
Is this CB06’s horse? Is she on COTH?
she posted on UDBB, I might be wrong but it looks very similar![/QUOTE]

That’s my boy. :wink: His first year showing (trainer riding), starting with the very first “A enter working trot”. He had only had a few months of part-training at that point. He’s a LOT of fun. :smiley: