I’d love to see photos of your DTA gelding! I really like that bloodline, bred a mare to a DTA brother (due in about 2 months) and she is the daughter of a stallion whose dam is by Jig Time, so it’s some linebreeding, altho not too close.
PennyG
Seems to me that what we hear about these different lines depends a lot on our sources… 'fraid I was guessing on Foolish Pleasure based upon the offspring I’ve seen that made nice hunters, and a very sweet filly I saw at a sale.
Speaking of which-- and getting back to the need to look at the whole pedigree: the 2 sweetest horses I’ve ever had (including the one with all the Nashua blood), were both by Speak John stallions— the one crossed with the Nashua lines is confident, steady, and sweet. The other, Speak John x Northern Dancer x Bold Ruler, was even sweeter-- but also a much more difficult ride because she was much less confident and so quick and sensitive… which I attributed to the N.D. in her-- largely based on a few Lyphards I’ve ridden.
Anyone have more knowledge of these lines/crosses-- especially Speak John/Prince John horses? I’d love to find another like that 2nd horse-- but I bought her a long time ago (15 years)-- so the names in her pedigree have kind of fallen off the catalogue pages by now and I’ve been away from the TB world so long that I wouldn’t have a clue of what to look for anymore.
That is too true, fish. I own two Diplomat Way horses and both of them are the easiest going horses out there. But as much as I think there are tough lines out there, I think it’s tough to say anything statistically valid about a 3rd or greater generation. Which is pretty much what we are talking about. Lot of other things floating around in the genetic pool by that point.
Originally posted by FLIPPED HER HALO:
My friend has he meanest OTTB I’ve ever met. He won over a million racing and was trained by Bob Baffert and was by Flying Paster. To this day he’s just flat out mean!
If you mean Letthebighossroll, note his dam sire is Jig Time. Then scroll back to discussions about Darn That Alarm. Then look up the sire of DTA. I know you won’t be surprised to see it is Jig Time. 
Originally posted by Alagirl:
Too bad there are really not many races that go that long - on the flat. Das Silberne Band von der Ruhr beat me to death with my own shoes, I am not sure what track it is run on, Duesseldorf or Dortmund, it is (or was, I’ve been gone a long time) 4000m on the flat!, that is almost three miles!
More like 2.5 miles, if you’ll forgive the pedantic nonsense.
I stood a stud for a syndicate years ago who was by Nashua, out of a Round Table mare. He was the meanest, dumbest SOB that ever drew breath. I also blame whoever raised him, because they didn’t make any effort to socialize him at all, and you couldn’t even turn him out, and think he’d be alright.
He wanted to bite, kick, or strike at you at any opportunity. 
They guy that got him after me called to see how I had handled him, after having him in the barn two days.
I said, “Charlie, did you ever dance with a fat man?” 
It’s funny about all the Darn That Alarm comments - He was at the farm I worked at back when he was still a young’un (3 ish) and he was a perfect gentleman. Now mind you, I had pretty limited interaction with him, and just because they are good to swim, doesn’t make him perfect mannered by any means.
But years later in his last year of racing, when he was the King of Calder, I worked at Calder, and the trainer I worked for was at the head of the path so I generally caught the King on his way to work every morning. Not that you could miss him. Big. White. Horse.
But he carried himself like a king among peons. Always regally striding to the track amongst the riff raff that cavorted around like fools. 
On a slightly related note, there was a PBS show on last night called “Underdogs” and it was about these two working dogs (Bearded Collie and a Bloodhound) that had already been through a few homes, and were considered incorrigible. A sheepdog trainer took the bearded collie (he was a rogue around sheep) and a tracking trainer took the bloodhound who had been through SIX! homes in her life. She was a only a year old.
Anyway, they both noted that these hyperactive dogs with behavioral issues are mostly just dogs who need a job and got in the wrong hands and in places where they couldn’t use their energy constructively.
Both of them came out pretty darn good working dogs. The blood hound is a police tracking dog in MA and the bearded collie is working sheep regularly, and the speed both learned was frightning. Both trainers commented how the dogs were smarter than they were. The collie trainer was cute. At one point she walked away saying “I am the boss I am the boss I am the Boss”…
Interesting, because every time you run across an intense horse - or even one that seems batshit crazy - you wonder how much of it is caused by nurture that played to the worst aspects of their nature?
As a personal slave to TB’s in training, I am not overly fond of most boys by Tobasco Cat (read Storm Cat). They just come with a 'tude. Just my experience.
I know other Storm Cat grand kids I could have well lived without in my life too.
Worked with one this spring that could NEVER go to the track alone for the safety of all concerned. Trainer did not have a pony horse. Let’s just say I personally know how to jog. 
I have worked with some direct Storm Cat filly’s that were just plain horses like any other horse. go figure
Originally posted by fish:
The funny thing about these so-called “tough” lines, though, is that many of their members end up being famous for their EASY temperaments-- Nassrullah is perhaps the best example. His descendants are famous for “toughness,” yet his son, Bold Ruler, and his descendants (e.g. Secretariat, Foolish Pleasure, etc.), are well known for their sweet dispositions.
I worked with an Honest Pleasure mare that I wanted to take home with me back in the early 80s.
My OTTB mare, is a Seattle Slew granddaughter and is a sweetheart – unless you try to force into anything. Then she’s stubborn; but if she understands what you want and you ask it of her, she’s very good. She has Raise A Native bloodlines on her dam lines, though.
I once worked for a big name hunter trainer who said she always preferred the “dumb blond” types who just learned their job and did it, not being prone to coming up with bright ideas when they were the last thing needed!
One of her favorites was a big grey TB Ammy Owner and Equitation horses who was so simple-minded that he never broke rhythm once the opening circle started and jumped anything he was pointed at. She likes to tell about the time his owner arrived at a show even later than usual, jumped on the horse without learning the course very well, went in anyway, and jumped a nice fluid round, going over 2 oxers backwards.
I young woman who braided for me recently acquired a Storm Cat filly from Rodney Jenkins. She says this is, in every way, the nicest horse she’s ever owned.
I have been thinking back, too, on stallions I’ve known whose temperaments-- and reputations-- changed dramatically with a change in owners/handlers: e.g. Unfold was so unruly when I first saw him that his handler couldn’t get him to stand still to be looked at. Within a year of being moved to Va., he was apparently a completely different animal-- and quite popular among show horse people.
While I know I recognize a lot of family characteristics in various lines, it does seem to me that the overall bad/good, belligerent/agreeable distinction is way too broad-- and way, way too dependent upon how the people involved with the horse manage to mesh with the personality… not to mention a slew of other potential factors: e.g. whether or not the horse is physically uncomfortable from ulcers, injuries, etc., etc.
i love the bold ruler line. they make an excellent sport horse and race horse. they have great wb like conformation, are physically tough, honest, hard workers and great personalities.
my ottb is fifth generation male line descendant of bold ruler. when i first got him i didn’t know a thing about bloodlines. when my vet came to look at him, he asked where i imported my wb from. when i told my vet he was an ottb, my vet very quickly replied that he must be out of bold ruler. i contacted equineline.com to get bobbie’s track record and breeding history and there was bold ruler right at the top. amazing how stamped bobbie is by blood that far back. my vet said that bold ruler on the male side tended to throw big, hot chestnuts. and that is true, bobbie is big and can be hot. but he can be and is a sucker for a soft touch and a little romance so generally we can work through things after we have a discussion. as long as he is not bullied or pushed around, he’ll give things an honest effort. have to keep an eye on the grain though, it just makes him bigger and hotter. he can also be studdish at times, particularly at the shows with all the atmosphere, but i find that giving him time to clear his head and have some space away from the action helps a lot. he’s very bold in personality and will walk up to anyone expecting attention. he is very well aware of his good looks and presence and his intelligence is equal to any person. in my opinion i often think he knows he’s smarter than the rest of us, but that’s ok just keep the love coming.
he’s also ribot 4X4 and bobbie also raced turf as well as track. i’ve heard that ribot’s behavior was awful as a stud, but great during his racing career. bobbie is happiest when he has his little jobs to do. he does not vacation well, but is happy to have a couple days off here and there as long as he is getting the attention he knows he deserves.
my instructor has a bold ruler and the horse is very bold in his work, but meek as a lamb off the job. he’s inbred 3xs, and like my bobbie has the great bold ruler build. absolute perfection to look at, sleek, round sculpture. full bodied, yet still refined and elegant.
I have a horse with a couple of these “mean” lines. His sire is Heff, who is Alydar x Extra Alarm (Extra Alarm is dam of Darn that Alarm).
As my mom put it, he is a horse “with a sense of himself.” Very cocky, dominant, aggressive even (with horses, people, dogs, whatever). A bit studdish. Too smart. But very very bold and a great jumper. Wonderful on xc. A neat guy, but I can see a lot of places where these traits could be an issue, too.
I am new to TB’s, and still researching my 15 year old’s pedigree, but it is interesting to read the posts about some of these horses and their impeccable ground manners,(like mine) but once you get in the saddle you cant let your guard down…and I also find with my guy he will cooperate until he thinks its time to be finished, then he is like a little powder keg ready to burst…when I get off him, he is like a little puppy dog…so this is typical TB behavior, eh? (he is such a cutie, btw)
fish, I share your interest in the Speak John, Prince John line. I have 19 year old TB whose grand sire on top is Speak John. I got him off the track as a 4yr old and you will not find a kinder, more gentlemanly animal. Plus he had some jump in his day, he packed me around and showed me a good time eventing and in the jumpers. He is still sound (with management) and packing a long stirrup kid around.
Further, there was another Prince John stallion in this neck of the woods several years ago and his offspring are also good jumpers and stellar ammie horses.
I had posted a query in Sporthorse breeding forum about a TB stallion in Ontario called Yavari, he is by a Prince John stallion and he showjumped for Brazil under an amateur rider. He apparently raced as well before a career in the Grand Prix jumpers.
Interesting … I guess the straightforward, 40-watt bulb types probably do suit the hunter game best, but personally, as an eventer, I want a horse who can think on his feet! So while I can’t abide a nasty horse, I don’t mind one who questions authority a bit or thinks he’s All That … the difficult or uberintelligent ones, in my experience, are also the brilliant ones who’ll save your sorry tuckus out there when it needs saving. I actually go out of my way to find the Alphas … and if they did some winning at the track, so much the better, because that seems to really inflate their egos. A horse like that says “bring it on” when I point him at a trakehner with a yawning ditch underneath … well, most of the time, anyway. <G>
Interesting comment about Sauce Boat … I have a mare who goes back to him on the dam side, and it does explain a fair bit!
Originally posted by Sing Mia Song:
Yep, you’re right. There’s a reason why I never go to Preakness, and that’s it. Too many drunken idiots.
The guy did have to do a number of days of community service after trying to punch Artax in the stretch. What a freakin’ fool.
Wasn’t that the year Red Bullet won?
Artax was a '95 colt, which would put him in the '98 Preakness, which Real Quite won. Red Bullet won it in 2000.
Originally posted by WhiteCamry:
Artax was a '95 colt, which would put him in the '98 Preakness, which Real Quite won. Red Bullet won it in 2000.
Ah, but he wasn’t running in the Preakness. It was on the undercard, in a sprint stakes.
On Bold Ruler: although his sire was known to be difficult, I’ve always read that Bold Ruler himself was sweet as can be, and tended to throw good-tempered horses. My best show horse ever was, in a way, line-bred to Bold Ruler, her dam being a Boldwood (by BR)mare out of a mare by Loser Weeper, a full brother to Bold Ruler’s dam, Miss Disco. The fantastic equitation horse, Ambitious Ruler, was by Bold Ambition, by Bold Ruler. I was working at a top H/J barn which had Ambitious Ruler and another $100+ hunter named Bold Comment when I was told that Bold Ruler was behind a lot of good show horses.
Another example would be Mytens, who until his recent death, stood at the Holsteiner Verband in Germany. Mytens was by Spectacular Bid, by Bold Bidder, by Bold Ruler.
I guess it’s almost to be expected that when a horse gets as many good mares as BR (and his sons) did, a good many of the numerous offspring will find their way to the shows and, in the right hands, prove successful there. It seems, however, that I don’t see or hear of many Alydars doing well at the shows, and he got a lot of fine mares, too-- and was reputed to throw difficult temperaments.
I did meet a gorgeous Talinum gelding (by Alydar) in the hunt field years ago. The horse took a liking to my mare (by Savings, by Buckfinder)-- and we had a whale of a gallop that was not entirely optional for the Talinum’s rider 
Originally posted by Alagirl:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by WhiteCamry:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Alagirl:
Too bad there are really not many races that go that long - on the flat. Das Silberne Band von der Ruhr beat me to death with my own shoes, I am not sure what track it is run on, Duesseldorf or Dortmund, it is (or was, I’ve been gone a long time) 4000m on the flat!, that is almost three miles!
More like 2.5 miles, if you’ll forgive the pedantic nonsense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks, I am not very good at converting metric to imperial w/o a calculator (plus miles and KM throw me for a loop, inches to cm, I can do! ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It’s easy. Just reckon 1 mile = 8 furlongs = about 1600 m. That makes a furlong about 200 m.
