Is this Legend or are certain TB lines known for being belligerent?

[sidesaddle]

Alagirl:

I did get my DTA gelding via Canter PA. Thankfully he is not mean, but is a lamb in the stall and loves to be handled… but put the saddle on him and he wakes up.

I agree with a lot of what others have said about the DTA line and personality traits of the offspring.

Mine is bold and brave to the jumps, can appear to be a goofball in terms his form, experiments with lofting very high and not folding - but can fold and will over higher stuff, likes to work, favorite pastime is wallowing in the mud, would stay out 24/7 if allowed, nervous disposition and can throw a tantrum when he makes a mistake which normally is the case when presented a new training exercise, he seems to crave the companionship of other animals and definitely people, plays gently with a small cat and seems to interact in friendly manner with pony and foal over the fenceline…16.2 fleabitten gray, white mane and tail, has the one wild eye…

Last year I interviewed Michelle Hunter who was the first woman owner/rider to win the Gold Cup. Her horse was Joe at Six, another DTA. And everyone knows about the late great Darn Tip Alarm…

If anyone has information on Michelle and Joe, please email me. I lost track of them, but know they didn’t do well recently due in part ot Joe’s meltdowns in the paddock.

[GallantGesture]

My horse is a Nijinksy grandson and has most of the others mentioned above further back in his pedigree except Mr. P. He is a great horse, but it took a while to earn his trust and respect, and now he is very much MY horse, I think he is very sweet but apparently everyone else gets the ugly ears from him (including the dogs). He is super sensitive and hot, but has a huge heart and more try than any other horse I’ve ridden that more than makes up for his underlying crankiness. Not a beginner’s horse in any way, but I wouldn’t trade him for the world, I think he’d do anything for me. He is one that I’ve had to learn to work with though, and we’ve had to compromise on many things… now that we’ve got it all figured out though I’d definitely recommend whatever breeding made him!
Here’s his pedigree if anyone’s interested http://www.pedigreequery.com/gallant+gesture

[Alagirl]

Yep, you’re right. There’s a reason why I never go to Preakness, and that’s it. Too many drunken idiots

Like the infield crowd in Kentucky isn’t

[DMK]

I thought it was pretty well accepted that Nasrullah lines could be tough. Actually I just worked with the assumption that the whole Nearco affair was bound to be full of tough horses (case in point, the Danzig obit pointed out that Danzig was a tough SOB like his dad Nothern Dancer - Nearctic/Nearco).

But I always equated it with “tough as in good racehorse tough”. Like most really good athletes, you have to finesse the realtionship.

OK, except for this one Nijinski colt I worked with. He was tough in the sense that he should have been put in a can of dogfood.

[Alagirl]

Originally posted by WhiteCamry:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Alagirl:
Too bad there are really not many races that go that long - on the flat. Das Silberne Band von der Ruhr beat me to death with my own shoes, I am not sure what track it is run on, Duesseldorf or Dortmund, it is (or was, I’ve been gone a long time) 4000m on the flat!, that is almost three miles!

More like 2.5 miles, if you’ll forgive the pedantic nonsense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, I am not very good at converting metric to imperial w/o a calculator (plus miles and KM throw me for a loop, inches to cm, I can do! )

[Eventerjazz6]

[QUOTE=hcwells;1059129]
Tabasco Cat is the one who killed Lukas’ son, no? He’s got some pretty babies out there, but some of them don’t seem quite as sharp (intelligence-wise) as the other S/C babies and grand-babies.

As far as Apalachee… I’ve been around a few Apalachee broodmares, and owned one a few years back. Those that I was around were big handsome horses, not especially refined, but good-looking. My mare was a lovely mover, though she was older and used as a race-bred broodmare only when I got her. She could be tough but would do anything if you asked her in a way she found acceptable LOL.

Artax was out of an Apalachee mare, and he was one cool dude. Very smart boy… his bridle broke in the paddock one day before a race, and he waited calmly with reins around his neck until a replacement could be fetched from the barn
[/QUOTE]

Artax was AWESOME, definitely one of my favorites!

[LauraKY]

Two Bold Ruler horses here and I love their personalities. Strong willed, yes, but it keeps life interesting. Great work ethic, stunning movers. Very respectful (for the most part) once they know who’s boss.

[summerhorse]

One thing that I’ve heard and seen from breeders/sellers, etc. is that the higher (better) bred the horse is the more difficult they can be. (CAN be) They are bred to fight and to be the best and that carries over into their non racing attitude too. I do think that PEOPLE tend to make it worse though either by letting them get away with bad manners or by being so rough they create a defensive bad tempered horse.

[Lisa_Preston]

I’d not heard that specifically of BR sons–sure is fun to get your OTTBs history though, isn’t it? W even pulled track photos of the races.

[Mah_Navu]

I’d say it’s “legend”.

We have an OTTB who has some pretty inflammatory lines, according to legend…

Nasrullah, Nashua, Ribot, Bold Ruler, Nearco, Northern Dancer, Turn To, and even further back, he is related to the Tetrarch through Mumtaz Mahal…and War Admiral…

>>And his grandsire was the evil, vicious Danzig.

Here is a pic of his sire Parnter’s Hero, son of Danzig…

http://www.finalturngallery.com/g2/main.php/v/ALLIS-ART/album237/partners+hero/partnershero.jpg.html

LOL…

His INFLAMMATORY pedigree can be viewed here:

http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&reference_number=7413513

He is, however, the most calm, sane, in your pocket TB in history… he cuddles, he nuzzles, he kisses, he even listens to me read stories to my kids…

See video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1_-DWUaiFo

Not a hint of Danzig or Ribot in him. With humans, anyhow. He is, however, vicious and aggressive with other horses in general, and has had to be turned out with cows at one point in his life…he does fairly well with our Belgian mare, but only barely. We have considered turning him out in his own pasture as he does bully her and gets aggressive once in a while. Luckily, we have the ability to turn him out alone in a pasture beside hers so they can see each other, if need be. They have been turned out together for a year now with no major issues, just minor ones…

[DressageGeek_Ribbon]

I have a Bold Ruler great grandson, but apparently he is just like his dam, Zen It Happened (by Zen). Strong willed, smart as the dickens, but if you “explain” things to him very reasonable. Level headed. He has trained me very well.

[FatDinah]

Fusaichi Pegasus was very rambunctious on the track and so apparently have been some of his sons, i.e. Andromeda’s Hero. I think it was Bob Baffert who said of him “he can rear higher than his old man.”
But a Fu Peg son(gelded) came up for sale at Finger Lakes and the volunteers reported his groom and trainer described him as a sweetheart.

You have to wonder, what would John Henry’s babies been like if he had been left a stud? His mean streak was legendary even in to his last years.

It was interesting to listen to theSaratoga TV feature on how “bad” It’s Tricky is to train, which seemed to be that she does not like to go to the track without a pony and she dumped her jockey after the Coaching Club Oaks when he squeezed a sponge on her head. I don’t see these as bad behaviors for a 3 yr old … would you take a 3 yr old alone for a trail ride by a road and thru busy barns and expect her to be quiet?

[Lord_Helpus]

According to current genetic theory, each horse only contributes 1/2 of his genetic makeup in each ejaculate. The other 1/2 is made up of the same genes, but they are in different places or somehow genetically altered (mutated), so that they will not pass on a trait the sire/dam has.

Each generation you trace back, you have double the ancestors, therefore there is 1/2 of that generation’s genetic material being passed down to our hypothetical foal, while the other half of "uninheritable gene " pool becomes a larger, more motley proportion of possible traits handed down.

By the 4th generation each horse only contributes 3.25% of his genetic makeup to the foal in question. In the 5th generation, the % is so small as to be meaningless.

Thus, the total contribution of a 5th generation sire is: 1/2 of 1/2 of 1/2 of 1/2 of 1/2 of 1/2 = 1.67% (I think )

Since the total % of “uninheritable genes from ANY of the ancestors” remains at 50% throughout each generation, you can see why that “pool of genes” is more likely to be passed on.

That is why I personally think it is silly to try to compare offspring from a certain line. Yes, some stallions are prepotent and stamp their get to an incredible degree, but the average horse’s influence of any given foal falls off quite quickly.

[LaurieB]

@FatDinah;5791187

Fusaichi Pegasus was very rambunctious on the track and so apparently have been some of his sons, i.e. Bellamy Road. I think it was Bob Baffert who said of Bellamy “he can rear higher than his old man.”

Bellamy Road is by Concerto.

[FatDinah]

Sorry, got him mixed up with Andromeda’s Hero, it was that year Zito had 5 in the Derby.

[Jaegermonster]

@FatDinah;5791187

Fusaichi Pegasus was very rambunctious on the track and so apparently have been some of his sons, i.e. Bellamy Road. I think it was Bob Baffert who said of Bellamy “he can rear higher than his old man.”
But a Fu Peg son(gelded) came up for sale at Finger Lakes and the volunteers reported his groom and trainer described him as a sweetheart.

Fu Peg is not in Bellamy Road’s pedigree. Bellamy Road is by Concerto out of a Deputed Testamony mare. BR’s breeders are good friends of mine.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/bellamy+road

[tradewind]

I think in general you ride the horse not the pedigree. That is not to say that certain lines don’t have some general traits that can be seen.

[Flying_Fox]

The Matchem-line flourished in America on the foundation of another bad-tempered,
brutish animal, Fair Play (1905).
One of the most versatile, brave and generous horses of the last century - when racing - Tristan
(1878), winner of placed in 47 of 53 career starts, a “hat-trick” winner of Ascot’s Hardwicke Stakes,
Grand Prix de Deauville and Newmarket’s Champion Stakes (astonishingly twice sharing the victory in
this later race), was a fierce demonic scoundrel whose temper became his end. In a fit of rage, and
without anyone on whom to vent his spleen, he crashed his head against a brick wall, killing himself!
Fortunately, he left the legacy Canterbury Pilgrim (1893). She inherited much of her sires racing ability

• and most of his temperament. Winner of Epsom’s Oaks Stakes, she was a shrew when she-so chose:
  Dam of Chaucer (1900), who did not have the best of tempers, this “fire” appears as little more than
  ashes in her other son, Swynford (1907).
  Derby winners who suffered temperamental failings, included George Frederick (1871), a “foul-natured beast”, a disposition he inherited from his sire, the “extremely savage brute”, Marsyas (1851)… Ladas (1891) benignly described contemporaneously as “… delicate and high-strung, was, in fact, an ill-tempered beast, although and routinely, absolutely genuine when racing… Yet another ferocious winner was Diamond Jubilee (1897). He had a nature more befitting the bull-ring than the racecourse, and before his Epsom victory, walked almost the length of the course on his hind-legs. At
  stud, though, he became more tractable, reserving the spitefuil side of his nature for occasions.
  Another savage was Lowland Chief (1878) Over the years, a tendency towards spitefulness deteriorated into a meanness of nature which by late age was inbridledly vicious and he was put down in 1898 to save possible misdeed; almost the same may be written of Alcantara 11(1908), whose mean
  streak deteriorated until he became a danger, and he was destroyed in 1930.
  Flying Fox (1896), a conseqeunce of the 'hot” Galopin blood through his dam, Vampire (1889), a daughter of Galopin. Vampire possessed a wicked temper, and killed her first foal, savaging a groom who try to stop her mayhem. Flying Fox inherited nervous irritability, and the superabounding ability of his forebears, proving outstanding on the racecourse before establishing a sire line familiar to all, through the names Ajax (1901), Teddy (1913), Sir Gallahad HI (1930, Asterus (1923), Ortello (1926),
  Bull Dog (1927) and Citation (1945).
  Santoi (1897), famous for his toughness, and the strain of hardiness he bequeathed, was another bad-tempered individual, a trait he inherited from his maternal grandsire, the “fiendish” Broomielaw.
  Corcyra (1911), a high-class son of Polymelus, was always, to be kind, wilful, and at stud became “very queer.” Never a horse with the sweetest of dispositions, those who tended him were always at pains also to humour him. Potentially a high-class stallion, he met with an accident when only 9 years
  old, and was put down.
  More close in time are Nearco (1957), Nasrullah (1940) and Ribot (1952).
  Nearco was always referred to as of high-mettle. In fact, he was strong-willed to the point of
  mulishness, a quirk of temperament he passed to many of offspring, including Nasrullah. A high-class racehorse, widely regarded as the best horse in England to ten furlongs, he failed to win a Classic, and
  often as not, it appeared that lack of resolution rather than lack of ability that brought about his defeats. This undesirable psyche he bequeathed. Grey Sovereign was a victim, a strong-willed and irresolute character, handed down to hint by his brilliant forebears. On his better days he was a handful for the very best - but on others, he would sulk, and refuse to race, standing stock still when the tapes
  released for racing.
  Arguably, Nasrullah’s most talented son in Europe was Zucchero (1948). Endowed with Immense
  ability, he rarely lived up to his promise, and the pefformance, more often than not, was wanting.
  “Tiineform” delivered terse assessment: “.,. brilliant, but exasperatingly erratic.” He strode to majestic
  victory in Epsom’s Coronation Cup, trouncing the capable Wilwyn, first winner of Laurel’s
  Washington International, and Worden II, also successful in this event, but sulked his way to the
  winning post in the 1953 Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe, in which Worden took third place. Never, even
  on his best days, sweet tempered, he transmitted his ability, siring many good winners in Europe
  before his export to Japan, and his relatively early death.
  Other unreliable sons of Nasrullah, were the American-breds, Red God (1954) and Bald Eagle (1955). High hopes were held that Red God would prove good enough and go one better than his sire, and
  win an English Classic. His victory in Goodwood’s Richmond Stakes confirmed his ability and
  potential, but a wayward temperament negated his obvious worth, and his form was always suspect as
  his capricious disposition got the better of him. Bald Eagle, likewise, after showing promising form,
  allowed his dark side sway. Returned to America, his mind-set was eventually brought under control,
  and he was twice a winner of Laurel’s Washington Tnternational Stakes.
  Another of Nearco’s sons to display irascibility was Amerigo (1955). After a contemptuous eight S
  lengths victory in Ascot’s Coventry Stakes, the tetchy side of his nature took rein. Ill-tempered, he became almost impossible to control Sold to America, his fiery pugnacity was a hair trigger At one
  Meeting, he put on a rodeo-like exhibition," turning the saddlmg enclosure into a Wild West display, and dining on chunks of attendants "But when the more “amiable” side of his nature emerged, he showed prize ability It was an ability he transmitted, but, sadly, he died all too young, aged just ten
  years
  The great champion Ribot, was an amenable enough a character during his years of racing - but his disposition deteriorated at stud His attendant succinctly described his hazard to the unwary “Ribot”
  he said, “would climb a tree”
  If there is an inference that ability and suspect temperament go hand-in-hand, then there is the opposite side of the coin. Mieuxce (1933), Princequillo (1940), Petition (1944), Nijinsky (1967),
  Dancing Brave (1983) were all notably “decent” and placid individuals, as are the vast majority of the breed who are not of any extreme but fall within the “norm” of behaviour

[BarbB]

On Nasrullah - he was known for producing horses that were tough, mentally and physically. But not kind and cuddly. I had a horse who was 3 times Nasrullah, trainers who knew him in his heyday (before me) said that he was immortal - as in too mean to die.

[Calamber]

[QUOTE=witherbee;1046366]
I’ve heard from someone witha lot of firsthand knowledge that Cure the Blues was a nasty SOB and was close to killer status. He’s got Nearco 4 back on both sides, Nasrullah 3 back on dams side and Bold Ruler 2 back on dams side. Not sure how much it means, but I think that enough people have dealt with these lines over the years, and of course there are exceptions but I think there is some credance to it. Would it stop me from buying one as a hunter or a pleasure horse? No, I’d need to see the horse in person, handle it and talk to the trainer and groom to make my decision. Many times the actual sire and dam have more to do with it than even 2 or three generations back. I also agree that I take the dam more into consideration, but I have had a couple of the stallions that we stand really stamp their get temperament and personality quirk-wise . My own colt is by a stallion that consistantly throws babies that paw the ground when they want something (even though the stallion does not stand at the farm that these babies are raised at). Too funny how some traits are passed on…[/QUOTE]

On the other hand, a direct son of his, Guard or Gard Bad, was an absolute doll. I had an appendix filly by him but knew him and his woman owner who could handle him on a string as a breeding stallion.