Is this normal or fishy?

[Rachael55171]

I’m currently looking for a young horse and have been having trouble because I have very specific desires. I finally found a horse that is perfect and I’m a little obsessed with it. I set up a call with the breeder who is very reputable and well-known.

He owns the sire who is 13 year old and he recently decided to retire the stallion from both competition and breeding. I thought this was strange and asked why he retired the stallion. He said that he just wanted the stallion to have a good life now after being competed so aggressively. (He did say he was still going to use frozen semen for his own mares but not sell the semen publicly). I totally understand and respect that but I was a little suspicious because he can have a good life and continue breeding (at least I think). I said something along the lines of “that’s good to hear I was just worried that maybe you retired him because of a lameness issue.” He said that I clearly didn’t know anything about breeding and said “it’s frankly none of your business how I operate my farm.”

He went on about how stallions have to be pass a lot of veterinary exams to get licensed so of course he isn’t lame. But my worry is that he could have developed lameness later in life - far after his licensing. From my understanding kissing spine and navicular both appear later in life and have a genetic component to them. As someone who has owned horses with these conditions before, I would really like to avoid doing it again. I asked for him to send me radiographs of the stallion if he had any and he was very annoyed but said he would send them because he has nothing to hide. We was also going to send me a few other things I asked for but has since ghosted me.

Did I break some unspoken rule and greatly offend him. Is it out of line for me to ask about the soundness of his stallion that he retired at 13? I have never bought a horse from a breeder before so I am completely clueless about what is normal/acceptable. I’m so in love with this horse tho so I would like to try to fix this situation if possible.

Also most importantly could someone tell me - Is it normal for breeders to retire their horses from breeding and competition at this age even if they are sound? Am I missing something?

[SummerRose]

Couple of thoughts:

Regarding the relatively early retirement - no, that’s not common for a healthy stallion to be retired from breeding at 13 and I’d be concerned, too. But it isn’t outside of the realm of possibility. And it isn’t outside of the realm of possibility that the stallion is suffering from some lameness issues that isn’t hereditary but that has ended his breeding career.

Regarding being ghosted after asking about it - I can’t say that’s a surprise. The stallion may be perfectly fine but the owner might have been understandably offended that you would press the question after he said that he’s just retiring him to give him a good life. Or, maybe there is really something wrong with the horse. Or, there’s nothing wrong with the horse but the breeder believes that you will be a “problem” customer who he just doesn’t want to deal with.

(I’m not saying you shouldn’t have asked about it. But it’s not surprising that the questions did not go over well with the breeder.)

Unfortunately, I think this is a case where you’ll have no choice but to walk away. And that’s probably ultimately for the best - even if the owner was somehow able to convince you now that the stallion is perfectly sound and healthy, I suspect you’d be watching your young horse like a hawk and second-guessing every bad step he takes, especially if he ever had any even remotely possibly hereditary lameness or health issues. Which may occur even if the stallion is healthy and isn’t exhibiting any lameness, given the gamble that is breeding.

[fordtraktor]

Horses competed aggressively and/or breeding can come down with issues that are more a result of injury or wear and tear than conformation.

Is the owner still standing other stallions? Maybe he just wants to stop breeding. Breeding is such a heartbreaking enterprise sometimes. I don’t have a stallion, but I am completely D.O.N.E. with no desire to ever breed another baby. I love my current baby, but he is the last.

Servicing outside mares is also a huge PITA. I have a job, I couldn’t possibly drop everything to go collect a stallion whenever a mare is ready.

[dags]

@fordtraktor

Servicing outside mares is also a huge PITA. I have a job, I couldn’t possibly drop everything to go collect a stallion whenever a mare is ready.

This. Unless you’re dealing in volume, our American stud fees hardly cover all the ins & outs of standing a stallion. And mounting the dummy over and over and over comes with a whole host of physiological efforts that can eventually wreak havoc on a stallion’s hips.

And then there’s dealing with the customers, and this guy definitely sounds like that’s not his most favorite part of the gig All that for what, $850 a straw? Maybe $1200?

I think it is very rare for someone to want x-rays of the stallion when they are looking at a young horse, and I could see that reaffirming his decision to no longer deal with the public.

It sounds like the stallion has babies out there. You’d be better served tracking those down and seeing what they’re doing.

And then come to terms with the fact that buying a youngster is a risk, end stop. You’re insinuating that you want some sort of guarantee/assurance that this baby isn’t going to have issues 10 years down the line. That’s a fairly big red flag that we have an unappeasable & possibly uneducated buyer on our hands, and most of the times the money is just not worth the hassle. Especially if they might pop back up years later blaming the stallion for their dashed dreams.

[Cowboy_Girl]

Based on your questions and his responses, I understand why he is retiring his stallion and breeding program. The breeding side of the horse business is a PITA - you arm chair quarterbacked his entire business model and life’s passion. You did break an unspoken rule - you are purchasing a horse that’s already on the ground, its up to you to perform your due diligence via researching performance records on similar progeny/bloodlines. Asking for a PPE on the sire or dam of the prospect is out of line. Kissing spine and navicular are more about how you manage the youngster than how he manages his stallion.

[Rachael55171]

To respond to a couple of the questions. He does have 4 other stallions that he is still breeding and offering to the public so it is not the case that he is just fed up with breeding. Also I understand completely that the stallion could have an injury resulting from competition, pasture, or collection. That is the answer I was expecting him to give and if he had just said that I would have dropped the issue and not been concerned.

I also appreciate you guys pointing out how I am being a needy buyer and he probably just doesn’t want to deal with me. It helps me understand his perspective and not jump to conclusions.

[dags]

Taking one stallion out of a 5 stud string is an instant 20% decrease in workload & stress, so it could still make good business sense. And if he’s still going to use this stallion on his own mares, that seems to suggest he’s pretty comfortable with what he’s passing along?

[beowulf]

@Rachael55171

Also most importantly could someone tell me - Is it normal for breeders to retire their horses from breeding and competition at this age even if they are sound? Am I missing something?

It does sound like pieces of the whole story may be missing.

As with everything there are multiple sides. It could be your genuine questions were taken accusingly. He may have written you off because of them - whether or not there is a kernel of truth to your inquiries.

While it’s not always the norm to retire at 13, there are non-insidious reasons to do so. I know one very nice stallion who was hurt on the phantom and never went back to his PSG career. He retired totally from collection as a result. It could be that the motility or fertility is no longer to the breeder’s standards and he’s willing to take the risk on his own mares but not outside clients. It could be that he does not have the time and money and has other horses. Horses are expensive and take up time, campaigning a stallion is a huge expense. Sometimes if you have other prospects on the pipeline it makes more sense to funnel your efforts, energy, and money into their future.

There is value in asking about longevity and soundness, but you have to be tactful about it. I could see how asking for rads would get an SO’s back up, but some do provide it when asked if it is on file – but ask yourself why would it be on file?

It might be a better metric to connect with owners who have this stallion’s offspring - that can be way more telling than anything the SO or the stallion itself can show you.

[Rachael55171]

That’s what I thought and I felt reassured by that. But I just went and checked the foals he has in utero right now and none of them are by this stallion. Whatever I guess I’ll never know the truth.

[dags]

@Rachael55171

But I just went and checked the foals he has in utero right now and none of them are by this stallion.

My original assumption was that this one just isn’t throwing the quality of his other four and it just doesn’t make sense to keep standing him. Or maybe it needs a very specific mare type and he’s holding some frozen for that. Doesn’t mean the offspring aren’t well-suited for other/smaller goals, but if he’s breeding for top-of-sport and this guy isn’t throwing world-beaters then it makes total sense to pull him.

[Rachael55171]

Ok thank you for helping me understand how breeders operate better. I have never bought a young horse before so I have no experience with this side of the horse world haha.

[endlessclimb]

If you’re still dead-set on this foal, buy through a proxy.

[jvanrens]

She said in the OP that the stallion is licensed, so likely not a breed stallion (AQHA etc).

[Rachael55171]

@Amberley @Jvanrens The stallion is an Oldenburg. The breeder bought him an imported him from Europe 3 years ago.

[weixiao]

Not all stallions are easy to collect. Some, even if they are very well behaved and mild mannered otherwise, can be very difficult to handle. Some are also not a big fan of the dummy and aren’t interested enough or struggle to perform or find it confusing and stressful. It isn’t very common, but it does happen. Some stallions have fertility issues. If he isn’t booking a large number of mares, or isn’t settling very many mares from those bookings, it may not make business sense to keep offering him fresh to the public, even if he is sound and a nice stallion. I’m not sure what the situation was for this particular stallion, but just offering some other reasons that might contribute to a breeder deciding it isn’t worth the hassle of standing a particular stallion.

[DownYonder]

It could be that the stallion has decreased fertility and it is just not worth the hassle anymore to offer him at stud. Or perhaps he is a carrier of fragile foal syndrome and the owner has made a responsible decision to remove him from the breeding population.

[CuriosoJorge]

@DownYonder

Or perhaps he is a carrier of fragile foal syndrome and the owner has made a responsible decision to remove him from the breeding population.

There’s nothing wrong with breeding heterozygotes. Please don’t inadvertently criticize people who do.

[beowulf]

DownYonder is a breeder. It’s a perfectly responsible decision to retire a horse that is a carrier for FFS. There is nothing wrong with culling them from your program either, particularly if you are considering the breed’s distant future over the immediate result.

[CuriosoJorge]

@beowulf

DownYonder is a breeder.

So? So am I.

@beowulf

There is nothing wrong with culling them from your program either

Please explain your differentiation in “retirement” and culling, as you indicate that these are different things to you. I can see no longer breeding a carrier, as that’s a personal decision (albeit a strange one IMO).

I cannot see culling, as in euthanizing, a WFFS heterozygote. I sincerely hope that’s not what you’re advocating.

[beowulf]

@CuriosoJorge

Please explain your differentiation in “retirement” and culling, as you indicate that these are different things to you. I can see no longer breeding a carrier, as that’s a personal decision (albeit a strange one IMO).

I cannot see culling, as in euthanizing, a WFFS heterozygote. I sincerely hope that’s not what you’re advocating.

Did you breed a FFS carrier and that is why you read criticism in DownYonder’s statement? I admit, I did not read it that way.

As you said the decision to breed a FFS carrier is a personal one, as is the decision to not do so.

Retiring a horse (as in what OP spoke about, retiring from a sport career) is perfectly reasonable. As is culling one from your breeding program.

We don’t understand how carrier status impacts a horse. Until that is further studied, there’s nothing wrong with being conservative about it.

Personal opinions of the disease aside, if the goal is to eliminate the disease from a breeding population a logical step would be to stop breeding the carriers.