is this really linda parelli?

I don’t know why I keep reading this thread, or the comments on Fugly, or the responses to LP’s blog. I really don’t. It’s no skin off my back how others choose to train their horses, and while I feel sorry for the people being bilked out of their retirements for the furthering of the P’s ‘program’, it’s their danged money.

OK, now that I’ve said that- I just read this on the comments of the blog-

The first time I cried out of pity for a horse while watching the Parelli’s was when Linda fed her horse Allure a cookie and he began to disappear inside himself. She fed him the cookie to show her students what an introverted horse that had gone inside himself looked like and she talked about why he did that and how often he used to, etc.

Is this english? In the Parelli world, is a horse not allowed to enjoy a cookie, or is the fact that a horse enjoys a cookie cause for further ‘games’? What the fruitbat?

[QUOTE=alteringwego;4737130]
I can’t believe this thread is still going… sheesh! If you all got paid for all your opinions on other people’s horses you’d be millionaires!
Obviously the owner and trainer are pleased with the progress of the horse regardless of what means were used to achieve it.[/QUOTE]

Sadly, these sound like words you might hear in the wee morning hours, at the schooling ring, before the rest of the world wakes up . . .

Don’t make it right.

There’s no point in commenting further on the parelli board. My objections to her “explanation” on pg. 1 has been largely ignored.

Window in time
You’ve clearly read what has been posted, what many of us think of this incident, so I will respond to your words here.

The excuse we did not see the moments before nor the moments after doesn’t wash. What we saw through this window in time is a lack of feel, a lack of timing, and a lack of natural understanding. It matters not what any other moment shows, your language with the horse does not come naturally. Your reactions don’t make sense. Your movements lack any sort of finesse or adaptability. A few moments in time should never, ever be enough to disparage a good trainer. Their purpose, at all times, should be clear to any halfway decent horsemen.

I dare say you don’t have it. You had to work for it, that inner equine voice. You had to think about it. “Those who can’t, teach”. It all makes much more sense now. But there is absolutely nothing, nothing about that clip that could be termed “natural”.

The fugly site is back. She said that it was webhosting issues, not LP.
http://www.fuglyblog.com/

A note to Linda and to Barney’s Owner Paul

Just read a few entries from the link provided. Since it includes references to this thread, maybe y’all, or your mignons, are continuing to read. If not, one of you lurkers out there, feel free to forward!

The rationalizations of those who subscribe to the Parelli program only serve to lend a lot more credence to the theory that the Parellis are really not interested in good horsemanship at all- only the profit margin.

Linda, strongly suggest you read ‘The Emperor’s New Suit’ by Hans Christian Andersen.

Paul, the history of the horse as related in your post is vastly different from what was posted in this thread. However, I can tell you, I had a foxhunter who lost an eye while I owned him, it took him about a year to adjust but you know what, he did just fine without being smacked on his blind side or having a lead shank wiggled and ‘clunked’ at him. Photos of him posted earlier in this thread, actually.

To both of you: Yep, I am basing conclusions on four minutes of video. Get over it. One can do that when one has decades of experience with horses. One sees a horse that is in no way exhibiting dangerous behavior. In fact one perceives from some of the ‘defense’ expressed on the link referenced previously that ‘dangerous’ is an adjective listed as an excuse to buy DVDs and paraphernalia that will increase profit margins but really have nothing to do with the fundamentals of horsemanship.

Any ‘dangerous’ behavior on the part of that horse exists, or existed, only in the mind of novice, intimidated humans.

Rule #1: (I give you this at no charge) ALL horses are dangerous. They are big and heavy. They can hurt you without meaning to. If you cannot accept this premise, quit messing with horses.

Rule #2: Because you are intimidated by a horse, because you are a novice, or a ‘pretend expert’ that doesn’t really understand horses, is not a reason to take your fears out on the horse. YOU need training. The horse doesn’t.

Rule #3: The number one reason for horse misbehavior is overfeeding. The number two reason is insufficient exercise, principally in the form of turning horses out and letting them run and romp and be horses. When you combine these factors with a handler scared of horses (see rule #2 above)- you still don’t have a dangerous horse. What you have is a dangerous handler. Here’s a big hint. The solution to THAT is NOT jerking a horse around with a few gratuitous whacks to boot.

And, Linda, may I add, your ‘explanation’ of what was so ‘dangerous’ about this horse and what you were doing to fix this problem is just so totally bogus as to be laughable. What is not laughable is that you don’t mind making lots of money while leading novices into real danger by insisting that if they do what you say and buy lots and lots of Parelli products, they’ll be just fine.

I could go on, but gee, my wine glass is empty, most do something about that.

You are ‘Da Bomb’!! :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Nin;4737323]
It is not at all hard for me to believe that the horse was of one temperament in the foxhunter barn, worked regularly, with two eyes; and was a very different temperament after losing his eye, moving to a new home, and not being worked for two years.

Also, I didn’t see any sign of Linda losing her temper in the video. She was calm. She did what she did because she thought it was the right thing to do at that moment. She didn’t do it in an angry fit.

My personal opinion (in case anyone cares) is that she missed many opportunities to release on small tries. But I would not assume that any four minutes is representative of anyone’s entire life with horses.[/QUOTE]

If this were a lower level Parelli Person I might agree. But it’s not. This the Queen of the Realm. This is Numero Dos. This is the person who should personify, in each and every equine encounter, the Highest And Best Principles of their program. So she doesn’t get the “it’s only one incident” or “it was just four minutes” pass.

And then read the appologia. If she’d said, “hey, I had a “monday” and didn’t do as good as I could have done” I’d say cut her some slack. But she didn’t.

I didn’t see any fits of temper worth describing, but I did see an absolutely dreadful example of training. It’s good enough to be used as a Class One Example of an equine training Don’t Be.

The higher up you live on the tree the higher you’re standards are expected to be.

And Thus Endeth The Lesson. Amen.

G.

[QUOTE=]
You are ‘Da Bomb’!! :)[/QUOTE]

Amen!:yes:

Lovely post Beverly. This bugs me a lot, because I started horses as an adult. Everything from putting on a halter to cleaning its feet to learning their behaviour was all learnt as an adult. Luckily for me, I started with a very good old school type trainer-by accident actually. I shudder to think what might have happened if I had started off with this type. When you have no frame of referance and are dealing with a large animal that may outweigh you many times over-you really need good , solid instruction.

At least me, I grew up with cows, bulls and oxen, so I have a good sense of large animals and can relate to them, body language and also to be careful with them. But many don’t even have that and it is just sad if this becomes their base and foundation.:no:

[QUOTE=Guilherme;4737572]
If this were a lower level Parelli Person I might agree. But it’s not. This the Queen of the Realm. This is Numero Dos. This is the person who should personify, in each and every equine encounter, the Highest And Best Principles of their program. So she doesn’t get the “it’s only one incident” or “it was just four minutes” pass…The higher up you live on the tree the higher you’re standards are expected to be.[/QUOTE]

I can’t really disagree with you.

In addition to doing Parelli with my horse, I also do clicker training. (Two really weird things!!) And as a clicker trainer, I am really focused on catching the clickable moment, or in Parelli terms, seeing the try and giving the release. There were just so many tries that were missed.

Had the handler (either Linda or Paul) noticed and released on any of the tries, the entire situation would have been very different. Sad.

I know I’ve seen video of myself that didn’t look how I thought I experienced it. :slight_smile: So, I have some sympathy for that.

A lot of people who do Parelli didn’t like this lesson. And I don’t just mean they don’t like it now that they see all these comments here and on Fugly, etc. They didn’t like it when it was released 3 years ago. We discussed it thoroughly on the Parelli list way back then.

Some Parelli students saw it one way and some saw it another way, but it was totally controversial even among us “Koolaid drinkers” right from the start. So, you’re not telling us anything we haven’t already thought through.

And I suspect that goes for Linda too. They have already made a new L1 to replace this one. And, yes, you can criticize that they made a new one just to sell more. Yeah, maybe. But it’s also possible that they made a new one because they didn’t like this one. A lot of us didn’t.

LP says the horse needed to trust the leadership of a human… how exactly is smacking it around and hitting it in the jaw with a metal clip going to teach it to trust? ANY halfway competent horseperson could have made REAL progress with that horse in two minutes, without abusing it for 5 minutes straight.

Wow, I just watched the video and found it very disturbing. It honestly looks like an example of how NOT to train a horse. Everything about what she does is so disorganized. The hitting in the face makes me sick. Very sad.

That said, I’ve seen far more disturbing training at the local FEI dressage trainer’s barn as well.

I saw an angry woman, even if some did not. Certainly not a caring and sensitive horselover.

I can just visualize how Tom Dorrance would have approached that horse…

I would like to congratulate Beverley (post 421) for one of the most eloquent things I’ve read on this BB. I also shout a loud Amen! for messages 426, 427 and 428.

Nin, I am glad you posted the thoughtful addition you did, however if you still are a Parelli devotee, I would need to ask ‘why’ and more forcefully ‘WTF’ why? Your message 425 showed you have horse sense and awareness of what was wrong with the video we have been discussing, but if you have continued with their ‘program’ please do tell us what on earth you actually have found to be helpful? I really want to know.

I attended their 3 day presentation in my area several years ago, thought it was interesting and entertaining but I did not really see any training going on. Prior to that, my first exposure to Parelli was watching an acquaintance try to load his balky kicker of a mare by tapping her on the butt for about a half hour, during which time she either stood there, bored, or cocked a hind leg at him until he gave up. I could have gotten that mare loaded in 10 minutes by using standard horsemanship methods, (from which genuine NH approaches derive), so was not impressed by his state of enthrallment to the Parelli ‘system’. I recognized it as cultish from the very beginning. I genuinely wonder why so many people do not? Those very people are the most in danger with their horses, as the Parelli program as I know it does not really give them the tools they need to interact safely with their horses.
sigh…

My goodness!

Jumping jacks! What the hell???

I’ll have to remember THAT as a useful training tool!! NOT!!

Linda, my dear, sit down, pour yourself a cup of coffee. Listen to me kindly.

You really just don’t know what you are doing. You think you can teach, but you can not even handle a horse safely. I used to fox/stag hunt in the UK, those horses know about trees and bushes. Why, my dear, often jump bushes by downed logs! Shocking!!

You can’t chronically bash a horse in the face, with the timing of a left-footed-lame drunk, and expect him to respond. Do you know what a horse who really wanted out of there would do? He’d hit the end of that little halter and you’d have needed your shoulder reinserted. That horse, as you seem to not comprehend, was trying to understand. You, however, had the arrogance to imagine that what you were doing was training. You were afraid and you were ineffective. There is nothing wrong with admitting you were over your head. Clearly that is the case, but no, you have the temerity to put it on an instructional video. Stunning! Captured on tape your incompetence!

And let’s talk about that, shall we? If you stop and think about your market. Oh wait. I’m speaking to you about your market! To laugh! YOU know your market! It’s beginners who don’t have a clue what they are doing and look to these DVDs for a safe way to get their overfed, under worked, and under trained horses dead enough so they can go on a trail ride.
And you think that clocking that horse with a panic snap is going to be a good instructional moment?

Stop and think about that.

And you know what? Wait, take another sip. You need it. We all know you are just a cosmetics marketing girl who latched onto Pat and helped build the biggest equine cult going, we know the business world thinks you are wonderbread for building a kool-aid driven loyalty. We, in the horse world, are on to you and your husband’s gigantic ego. Pretending to be an instructor, retaining that horrific bit of video in your training DVD is really just a glimpse at your own padded sense of self.

Hunny, I’ve seen trainers make mistakes. They don’t like to do it, but it happens, the good ones learn. The bad ones create web page responses and build phony equine resumes for the victim to make the horse look like a fire breathing dragon, because we all know that taming a dragon is far better for DVD sales than just working calmly and sensibly with a horse who is blind in one eye, in a new environment, and probably just fresh. But, oh, no, this becomes some sort of object lesson to further illustrate, in your own mind, that you are some sort of trainer.

Hooo boy. Someone’s been had. In the business world we call them customers. I think in your world you must call them suckers, you treat them as such. Shame on you, Linda. You don’t have enough self respect to respect your customers.

You’ve had your cup of coffee, now go away.

I for one am sick of you ragging on about Dressage (I mean we are capitalizing here, right?) like you’ve ever done jack shit. Or that you’ve ridden some wildebeest instead of a horse, who now is a cuddly as a cocker spaniel. You’re a sales machine. We get it! We can see plum through it, so you are left with the poor suckers.

And, I for one, am angry about your predatory misinformation: lying about the horse, showing rank beginners that this kind of treatment of a horse is acceptable, that you actually know much about the competitive dressage world, er Dressage world, or even that Pat Parelli is the Greatest Living Natural Horse Shit Slinger in The Western Hemisphere.

Last tip: sales and marketing isn’t the same as information and education.

Now, go back into the hole you dug. I’m glad we had this talk. Here’s a refill on the coffee. Take a whiff!

[QUOTE=sdlbredfan;4737673]
Nin, I am glad you posted the thoughtful addition you did, however if you still are a Parelli devotee, I would need to ask ‘why’ and more forcefully ‘WTF’ why? Your message 425 showed you have horse sense and awareness of what was wrong with the video we have been discussing, but if you have continued with their ‘program’ please do tell us what on earth you actually have found to be helpful? I really want to know. [/QUOTE]

It is an approach that my horse is comfortable with. (By “it,” I do not mean the single technique that is on the video in question.)

Before I got this horse, I was a very serious dressage student. He was my first as-an-adult horse, my first serious horse. (I had had horses as a child.) He was not a dressage horse but an accomplished, competition horse. I fancied that my approach to dressage was so lovely that he would certainly take to it immediately.

Long story short – he did not! (And this is no slam on dressage in general. I’m talking about this horse and this human.) He was very sensitive, incredibly quick, and very resentful. He did not make a good adjustment to his new situation (with me). Just picture a train wreck waiting to happen, and you’ll have the right picture.

That began a long process of searching for what this horse needed.

I tried many, many things; and again, long story short, when a trainer introduced me to the Parelli techniques, I was instantly comforted and motivated by the step-by-step methodical approach in the video program (two versions ago). I was thrilled that I could see the roadmap clearly before me, and I could proceed at my own pace as I felt safe.

My horse immediately responded to the Parelli halter and longer leadrope. You can laugh, but he did. He immediately relaxed in their rope hackamore.

We started on Page one, Step one as if we had just met. It was an enormous change for me. It was a long process before I could feel safe riding on a loose rein, but it was so important to him. In time I could catch him without drama. He quit grinding his teeth. He quit bolting away from me on the lead rope. He stopped snapping at me (literally, snapping.) I was able to load him in the trailer. A thousand little things. (He was always brilliant under saddle.) In time, we ceased being antagonists and became partners. It sounds cheesey, but it’s true.

We worked our way through the program with significant success. (I won’t say great success because my horse, and I are not a great match, and we have not had as much success as other Parelli students.) However, I’ve had this horse 12 years now, and we’ve been safe and content together all this time. He’s really an amazing horse, and I am so pleased that I have been able to connect with him, even if not perfectly.

Does that answer your question? If not, please ask something else. I would be delighted to try to explain more.

I am not pleased with everything from Parelli Corporate, and I’m certainly not pleased with everything every Parelli student has ever done. But I have gotten (and continue to get) a lot out of the program.

[QUOTE=Nin;4737699]

I am not pleased with everything from Parelli Corporate, and I’m certainly not pleased with everything every Parelli student has ever done. But I have gotten (and continue to get) a lot out of the program.[/QUOTE] You may well get much more out of something else though and save paying your money over to an organisation that’s just a massive money making machine for the Parelli’s.

Up to you if you want to pay money to folks like that.

They’re clever marketers and rely on novice horse owners or owners that are struggling to do what’s right.

Beverley, please add your wonderful post here: http://www.parellinaturalhorsetraining.com/A-statement-from-Linda-Parelli#comment-216

I think I just called Linda a Darwin Award candidate. Can’t believe they’re leaving up the non believers comments! And WOW that kool aid must be strong… some of those posts have serious religious fanatic type undertones. It really is a cult!

ETA: Aimee, excellent post too! Maybe if more gunsels post over there it will break free a few still firing neurons… they really believe everyone else just beats horses bloody. Meanwhile, their saviors are the ones who’re abusive and destroying horses. Just insane…

I read LP’s statement. If she thinks that horse was spooky…apparently she hasn’t been around horses much, has she?

Yep, Geek. Either she’s one sheltered horsewoman, or she KNOWS she’s lying and also knows that most of the cult is comprised of beginners who’ll listen to her say he’s dangerous and spooky and then regurgitate to anyone who’ll listen. What a sham.

Probably because she can keep playing the victim.

Yes, it is a cult. Some of those posts creep me out. Really. Next these people will be claiming the Parelli’s arrived in spaceships or invented the Internet or something. Blech.

As usually Beverly is correct. But I’m afraid words are wasted on these people. Evidently the only way to gain their attention is to hit them in the face with a piece of metal.

I remain… unimpressed.

And a little nauseous.

Wow, some really great posts in here. Jswan, Beverly, Bluey, Misty - good job catching the two stories and combining in one post.

Others have had good things to say as well.

LP is saying we are looking at a moment in time. Yeah Yeah I get that, but lets not forget her comment in one of the videos “Good Whack or Good smack”. WTF kind of training is that where we praise getting a good one in on a horse.

If the flucking horse was nervous of the wind and trees (yeah right) take it back to the barn and work where it is comfortable.

Asshattery is right!

Good on COTH for getting this in front of LP.