Is TPH blog true? Are show dates really sub-leased?

[hillary_again]

Honestly, even though the cost of owning a horse and showing have gone up, I don’t think that those are the real hits to affordability. I think the hit is that OTHER things in our budgets have increased. Stuff that wasn’t such a big deal has gradually shifted and now those items eat up lots more of discretionary income.

Once upon a time, our health care was more like a fee than what we pay now - both for insurance as well as for out-of-pocket costs. Same for retirement - employers paid for this as pensions.

These two items are giant shifts in the finances of every adult and family.

And yes, the costs for showing, owning, all of it are higher, and lots of the costs seem to be aligned with the top earners - I agree completely. I don’t know about the other disciplines, but I think this is true with H/J. The horses, tack, clothing - all seem aligned to the highest income levels. Sad, because I’ve been part of this group since I was 9, and loved the challenges presented enough to still be at it, more than 50 years later.

The good news: I board at a general boarding facility that also hosts events. There are lots of participants in barrel racing, roping, and gymkhana events, and they come from all demographics. These sports seem more affordable: simpler to learn, more sponsors, less overhead to compete (tie your horse to the trailer for a few hours).

[vxf111]

I guess I wouldn’t be surprised that costs have increased since the 90s. Inflation alone accounts for that…

$1 in 1990 would buy you $2 worth of products today…

https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1990?amount=1#:~:text=Value%20of%20%241%20from%201990%20to%202021&text=The%20dollar%20had%20an%20average,Labor%20Statistics%20consumer%20price%20index.

I do think there are other costs of showing today that have increased OVER inflation but I’m not at all surprised that if you could get in and out of a show for $200 it would cost more like $400 today. I would expect that, actually. Costs have gone up for everything involved in putting a show on… labor, materials, overhead, etc. Even if the FACILITY hasn’t changed everything else has… the fuel to bring those jumps to the facility costs more, the hourly rate you pay the people who mow the grass has gone up, etc.

[Scribbler]

I read somewhere that long term inflation across the economy has been uneven because of overseas production of most goods.

Most of what we buy is unnaturally cheap due to being manufactured in China with a much lower cost of living. If these things were manufactured in the USA few people could afford to buy them.

Think about how little stuff middle class families had in 1965, let alone 1925 or 1900.

But things that have to be substantially produced in the USA or Canada have kept up with the cost of living here. These include service dependent industries like health and education. And I guess horse shows. Real estate prices, fuel, wages, have skyrocketed. And I bet most big shows dont rely much on volunteers.

That said, there can be unexpected consequences of things like the mileage rule, which could end up allowing pockets of weird profiteering that no one anticipated.

[vxf111]

My totally unscientific guess as to why bigger rated shows are so much more expensive today than they were back in the day is that labor is the primary driver of increased costs. Back in the day you could run a show with one adult show manager and a bunch of barn rats and maybe a volunteer adult or two. Now it’s a business. You need to pay SO MANY people with SO MUCH specialized knowledge. 2-3 people to run the entry software and be in the office, the people who deliver the jumps you rent, the people who set up the jumbotron, the people who drag and water, several judges (one per ring), stewards, barn managers/staff for night check, jump crew, etc.

And the cost to rent the facility has increased for the same reason-- the labor costs of the property owner. Gone are the days when you had one guy who just maintaned all the buildings, rings, and mowed. Now you have to hire a company to come re-grade the ring and another company to paint the fences and another company to mow etc. etc. etc. And the more specialized the labor is, the more you have to pay for those laborers.

I highly suspect that we have a lot more “boots on the ground” of all types at rated hunter/jumper shows (whether we NEED all those people or not-- I mean who NEEDS a jumbotron?) as compared to breed shows. I also think there’s a little “I can charge more because people will pay more” going on when you compare hunter/jumper to breed shows-- but I’ve been to APHA/AQHA shows at the same facilities that host hunter/jumper shows and it appears to my anecdotal eye that there are way way way fewer staff at breed shows. WAY fewer.

The logistics of breed shows can be much easier (again my experience is APHA/AQHA). You don’t need people moving jumps around all day when 90% of your classes are rail classes. Showmanship is like a freebie, it’s a bunch of people standing around with horses. You need to do almost nothing for them. Every class is divided by age, and sometimes further divided by sex, and sometimes further divided by color. What do you need to run 25 rail classes? A ring with a judge, an announcer, and a steward. Because it’s just a plain old ring and your competitors come in and out. What do you need for 6 hunter divisions? A course designer, someone to set up and supervise the schooling ring, someone to set jumps in the schooling ring, someone to drive the jumps and fill into the competiton ring, a lot more people (or manpower hours) to set those jumps up because they’re actual courses and fill for all the fences, someone to drag and water, a jump crew to pick up rails that get dropped and to tear down jumps every few classes for the hack, AND a judge and an announcer and a steward.

YES, it’s true that a stall at the facility is the same stall whether you’re hosting a APHA/AQHA show or a USEF show… but there just seems to me to be so much more effort and so many more paid staffers/contractors that are needed for a hunter/jumper show. If I had to guess, that’s where the price difference is.

Having run schooling shows and pony club rallies and similar… I can tell you my experience was you needed WAY WAY fewer people to accomplish a breed type 4H show than a pony club show jumping rally. Even if they ran the same hours and had the same number of entries. Everything associated with jumping added time, complications, and required manpower. Everything associated with changing gears between types of classes (jumping to hack or jumper to hunter or even big jumps to short stirrup type jumps) was the same.

Back in the day, a lot of people who you saw working at a horse show were VOLUNTEERING. Good luck getting people to volunteer now!

[Moneypitt]

Interesting to learn the cost of stalls at one popular show/training facility is $200 for a two day, unsanctioned schooling show. The stalls there cost $350, for a five day USEF sanctioned AA rated H/J show.

So same nice facility, same nice stalls. Per show day cost, makes the $350 seem like the ‘bargain’.

I agree with the guesstimate of about $3,000/show week. Of course; it could be less and it could be more depending upon umpteen different circumstances. It is certainly an expensive hobby.

[Peggy]

@vxf111
Would anyone like to join me in a rule change proposal that makes jumbotrons optional, or even forbids their use?

@Moneypitt
If a show brings in portables they are not likely making money on the $200. At least that used to be how the numbers worked out. For a the prices you could charge for a three-day show you almost broke even. That’s based on bringing the stalls in for one show. If the stalls stay around longer, the cost to management per show goes down; thus providing another benefit to the managers of multi-week circuits. And my info is about ten years old. Facilities with permanent stalls sometimes charge by the day per stall, sometimes by the show per stall, and occasionally charge a flat fee for all the stalls.

That $3K figure is about right. My total expenses for a three-day USEF C (B?) show with no braiding in March 2020 were $2400. For two big five-day USEF A shows in spring 2019 with braiding, the average was $3300. If you look at the cost per day the longer show is cheaper; however, if you consider the days I actually showed, that cost per day of amateur showing is about the same—$1100 for the longer show vs. $1200 for the shorter one.

Apologies for the somewhat out-of-date data, but I haven’t shown since then. The data is accurate though: I looked up bills and checks paid and wrote it all out. My plan was to support a hypothesis that the main cost of showing is access to a suitable and sound horse; for that I was going to compare costs relative to a horse show equivalent (HSE?) cost. But that’s as far as my little project went.

Editing to add that hotel costs are not included in my figures as I drove back and forth from home to the shorter show and one of the longer ones and stayed with a friend for the other longer one.

[vxf111]

Jumbotrons are optional. There’s a list of “amenities” that have to be offered for certain ratings and that’s one of the options. But a show manager can choose other options on the list if they s/he prefers.

[Moneypitt]

Yes; however this facility has plenty of permanent stalls for their schooling shows.

Most of the show grounds in the general area, seem to have a number of permanent stalls. They may need to bring in temporary stalls for the show entry numbers; possibly over 500 horses? Not sure their specific permanent stall numbers but they have hosted around 900 horses per weekly show.

Noticed they do offer some bigger size stalls, 10x12 vs 10x10; that cost $400 vs $350 for some of their shows.

Looking back, the USEF shows that no longer run; those shows brought in portable temporary stalls for those show venues. Minimal (think less than 100) permanent stalls for those facilities. I imagine the current labor and transportation costs associated with the temporary stalls might be cost prohibitive now vs back then?

[Peggy]

It does seem that there are fewer and fewer facilities using temporary stabling, at least temporarily. We have a few facilities out here that have wooden or even canvas portables that are there permanently. You’re probably right that the costs associated with moving them about became prohibitive. I think one of the companies out here may have gone out of business and/ or unloaded a lot of stock a few years ago.

Years ago I was denied a stall refund at a facility (Del Mar Fairgrounds) that had copious permanent stalls on the grounds that the show had to pay the facility upfront for the stalls and couldn’t get the money back.

[541hunter]

This is my read on it as well, though I’m much, much newer to the sport than many of the folks on this thread and don’t know what things were like in the good ol’ days. I worked back gate for 5 or 6 summers at a small rated show series and was paid $250/day plus hotel and per diem for meals. This is a place that sells out at 450ish horses and usually had more like 300 on a really big week. And of course judges, course designers, and full time pro back gate folks make more than I did, for sure.

I’ve since volunteered my time as a gate person for some schooling, IHSA, and IEA shows but honestly it’s quite hard on my body (lotta standing, lotta shouting, lotta weather, and a decent amount of stress) to do for nothing. I just don’t have the energy to do it much on top of, y’know, my actual job, not to mention riding. I often wonder if it was an easier ask for volunteers back in the day when there were fewer divisions and (I assume) less expectation of “professionalism” in shows from the exhibitors. Cuz I sure as hell wouldn’t do it for a normal horse show now.

[Foitin]

Really interesting thread. As the H/J sport stands now, at the A and AA level, it is absurd to talk about accessibility of any kind in the rated hunters. Though this is obvious, I think it is important to state. Maybe there is a leg to stand on at the 1.0m and under jumpers and 3ft. and under equitation, but the rated hunters, I cannot see any way of anything accessible happening, save cases of top notch talent AND fantastic luck at the junior level. At the B level shows I’ve attended (ej. Venice), I wouldn’t call the rated hunters, 3ft and up, accessible either. As everybody knows at the big shows, the hunter scene is crazy and booming at 3ft for adults and kids… For instance: at Upperville this year, there are 53 18-35AA hunters signed up. From the list, most of those 53 are super nice horses, as one would expect at a major horse show. Most people I know say they would ideally show 2 horses at a show (two 3ft hunters, two A/O hunters, one hunter and a jumper) in order to be at the top of their game, so that is at least 6k per show, at our barn, probably 6700. Who, besides the top .01 percent can afford that? Even if you go to 1 show/month, 9 months of the year, that is over 60k, and then you are still paying the bills at home, farrier, vet, other maintenance. One thing that would be nice to see is more child/adult equitation divisions in the 2ft. range, as well as some 2ft. hunters with some money in them. I know several people who had a lot of fun at WEC this winter doing these kinds of things, but they too, had very nice horses and money to maintain them both at home and on the road.

[Smiles]

What if there was a way for usef/usjha to tie in the grass roots thing with b & c rated shows? Make it less costly for smaller facilities to apply for those ratings and pass on the savings to the show goers to encourage more participation again?

I just wish there was a way to change the fix wheel that is horse showing. The wheel is broke forsure.

[Tackpud]

The USHJA has the Outreach program which is very affordable for shows to offer but many shows don’t hold those classes. They cater to those doing the lower jump heights and there is a division for everyone. People need to encourage show managers to hold these classes. Hunters, jumpers, and equitation - the Outreach Program has it all at a much more affordable price point.

[DMK]

Is that the facility cost (what the show manager pays) or the cost to competitors?

If it’s the cost to competitors it’s hard to compare the two since the markup may be different. The 2 day show may (or may not) be offering other cost savings that offset the stall cost. Or the facility may have a different fee schedule for off peak days or a volume discount for x days of use/year (month). Could be all of those or it could be none, but you haven’t given us enough info to make an apples to apples comparison.

But either way the h/j market has voted* (with it’s very fat) wallet that what it wants is big, destination shows, with primo facilities and a bjillion rings catering to every level at the same show. And with that choice comes a big fat show bill. I’m guessing if people would support smaller shows with the hit or miss facilities of ye olde days, then show bill would be more affordable, but I’ve not met too many people interested in that option during my time in the h/j world.

And don’t get me wrong, I used to wonder what the hell was going on that I paid so much more than [insert name of other discipline ] at the same facility. Then I switched disciplines to something much more volunteer based and actually thought about the $$ (and also thought about the logistics of breed shows, where you can run 20+ entry fees in a class in 20 minutes, tops, and well… duh, that’s more efficient/cheaper than 20 trips anddeargod2hours). So yes, I believe h/j show managers are not as lean and mean as they could be, but not nearly as bad as we would like to make them out to be.

• And by voted, I get that plenty of people didn’t vote for this option (I didn’t!) but enough of them did that it is the defacto result.

[Moneypitt]

Not sure exactly what you are asking but?

The difference in the cost of stalls at a facility hosting USEF H/J and USEF Arabian shows being about 50% more expensive? That was what the exhibitors paid. The Arab show was a day less but still it was apparently much less $$$. Those Arab shows have all sorts of classes and arenas and judges. Their classes also cost less $$ per class. **The H/J show was not an FEI World Cup qualifier. It would make sense that there would be added costs involved with FEI besides prize $$$$$.

It was a different facility that also hosts big USEF shows with 800-1000 horses that also has two day unsanctioned shows. Those are a current comparison of stall costs. Same zone but maybe 150 miles apart.

The other facility also has non USEF shows. I have no idea of the stall costs for those events.

I have no idea what the show managers pay?

Hope that clarifies your questions.

[IPEsq]

I was cleaning out some stuff and found some show bills from 1999/2000. I typically showed in the USET, a low jumper class as a warmup, and sometimes I did both an open division early in the week and the AO. If I got tricolors in both divisions, the show usually wrote me a check. Stalls were around $125/week for 5-6 day/week summer shows. My bill for one show after prepaid stall where I did only moderately well and/or the venue gave out less generous prize money in comparison to the division fee: $57. Another: $64. Does not include braiding but I only did mane. Does not include bedding. There was one small AHSA fee. Some shows had a small separate office fee. I think in 2000, an $8 D&M fee was added. Of course I had been periodically tested at shows for many years prior to the imposition of a separate fee for that. Housing, coaching, day care/grooming, travel costs (I hauled my own) not included.

Writing a 4 figure check just to the show office, on top of all the rest of it, just makes me ill.

[Smiles]

Same facility/same show dates/same stalls that have not change in over 20 years. Dressage $175 for wooden permanent building stall. Hunter/jumper price for the tent stall $250 which you may have a metal pole in and $400 for the wood stall. By the way only two rings were going for the hunter/jumper show.

[DMK]

The point I was making is that without knowing the true wholesale unit cost of the stall for each respective manager, it’s hard to make useful comparisons about exhibitor costs for that stall, too many other factors can impact that cost.

[Moneypitt]

These are big show grounds with hundreds of permanent stalls. Why would the cost of permanent stalls be different at the same facility?

Why would permanent stalls cost more for H/J vs Arabians or Western events?

Why would permanent stalls cost more for schooling shows than USEF at the same facility?

**Sans extra security which is an additional separate fee when applicable.

[blondewithchrome]

@Moneypitt

Why would permanent stalls cost more for schooling shows than USEF at the same facility?

Great question - local facility near me charges $50/stall for a three day local show, and same facility charges $175-250 a week for rated show. Same barns. Same facility. Same show rings. Exhibitor is subsidizing big rated show management costs, clearly.