Issues with hoof packing under pads in front shoes

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Hypothetical situation… curious as to other’s thoughts and how they would choose to handle it.

A horse is in full training boarded out, and has farrier care with the trainer’s preferred farrier, who takes care of 80-90% of the horses at this barn. The horse is in 4 shoes, with magic cushion and pads on the front.

The horse is moved to another barn for a three month stay for trail riding over the summer. When a different farrier goes to trim and reset shoes at the alternate summer barn, they discover that the trainer’s farrier packed latex gloves under the pads in the front feet. They can’t really tell if this was an accident, intentional, or what. But there were latex gloves stuck under the pads and against the horse’s sole, and it did create some uneven pressure.

Anyway… horse gets new pads with proper hoof packing and is fine. There were a few other minor details about the shoeing job that were not ideal, but not significant problems.

The question is… if/when the summer is over and the horse returns to the trainer’s facility to resume more intense training… what would people choose to do when it comes to farrier care?

1. Nothing. It’s no big deal. Continue on with the farrier who packed latex gloves against the horse’s front feet. The shoeing job was otherwise good.

2. Mention it to the trainer and ask the trainer to discuss it with the farm’s farrier, so that the horse only gets magic cushion or other standard hoof packing going forward.

3. Simply tell the trainer that the client wants to make a farrier change for this one horse, and will coordinate arrangements with a different farrier going forward, and hold the horse when the alternate client chosen farrier comes. In this hypothetical situation, the trainer won’t mind this - so long as the client does take full responsibility for coordinating farrier care for this horse given that they no longer want to use the farm’s primarily farrier. Also, if choosing this option… client pretty much will just diplomatically make the change, and keep it low drama/no complaining. If the trainer asks why they want to change farriers, they will discuss it. But otherwise, they will simply quietly move forward with a different farrier.

[Scribbler]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Hypothetical situation… curious as to other’s thoughts and how they would choose to handle it.

A horse is in full training boarded out, and has farrier care with the trainer’s preferred farrier, who takes care of 80-90% of the horses at this barn. The horse is in 4 shoes, with magic cushion and pads on the front.

The horse is moved to another barn for a three month stay for trail riding over the summer. When a different farrier goes to trim and reset shoes at the alternate summer barn, they discover that the trainer’s farrier packed latex gloves under the pads in the front feet. They can’t really tell if this was an accident, intentional, or what. But there were latex gloves stuck under the pads and against the horse’s sole, and it did create some uneven pressure.

Anyway… horse gets new pads with proper hoof packing and is fine. There were a few other minor details about the shoeing job that were not ideal, but not significant problems.

The question is… if/when the summer is over and the horse returns to the trainer’s facility to resume more intense training… what would people choose to do when it comes to farrier care?

1. Nothing. It’s no big deal. Continue on with the farrier who packed latex gloves against the horse’s front feet. The shoeing job was otherwise good.

2. Mention it to the trainer and ask the trainer to discuss it with the farm’s farrier, so that the horse only gets magic cushion or other standard hoof packing going forward.

3. Simply tell the trainer that the client wants to make a farrier change for this one horse, and will coordinate arrangements with a different farrier going forward, and hold the horse when the alternate client chosen farrier comes. In this hypothetical situation, the trainer won’t mind this - so long as the client does take full responsibility for coordinating farrier care for this horse given that they no longer want to use the farm’s primarily farrier. Also, if choosing this option… client pretty much will just diplomatically make the change, and keep it low drama/no complaining. If the trainer asks why they want to change farriers, they will discuss it. But otherwise, they will simply quietly move forward with a different farrier.

Do you know for sure there were latex gloves in there? Did you see or hear from the farrier directly?

Or by hypothetical do you mean it never happened, this is just a thought experiment? Or was this a fifth hand story of unknown provenance

I’ve seen trimmers lie to try to steal clients. New farrier could have lied about what he found.

It seems odd to me. But maybe it works?

Is this your own horse? How good are you at evaluating trim and shoeing? What did your bills say was used as packing? Can you evaluate all the little non-ideal things about the trim and shoeing and see if they add up to “not good”?

Honestly the 3 options here are all about managing the people, not the horse. Is the farrier sane enough to abide by your request for magic cushion or will he explode, or continue to use gloves, and how will you know if you aren’t there for the shoeing? What does trainer think?

How sane is trainer? Can you simply say “btw new farrier says hoof was packed with latex gloves, what do you think?” and not be fired as a client? Can you talk about care with trainer as informed horse owner or does trainer run the show?

If it’s not your horse or situation I would stay clear because you don’t have understanding of any of the interpersonal stuff.

[Heinz_57]

If glove were found on both feet, I wouldn’t consider it an accident. It sounds like the farrier was using the latex as a sort of barrier, probably to make the MC easier to remove at the end of the cycle. Pull off glove once shoe is off = instant clean foot, vs having to scrape and deal with the residue from the MC while applying new shoe. I’m not saying it’s a good idea to use a glove, of all things, but the concept seems OK. I cannot fathom how you could accidentally leave gloves under packing, especially on two feet.

That said, if owner doesn’t like things about the shoeing job, and I can’t imagine what that could be that wouldn’t be significant unless it’s something like ‘he doesn’t put Tuff Stuff on at the end’ or ‘I wish he’d use copper-coated nails’ - owner should use a different farrier.

If owner wants to continue using glove-using farrier, IIWM I would non-confrontationally ask about the gloves in a I’ve-never-heard-of-that-before way. Looking for information, with an open mind, non-accusatory.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I know for sure there were latex gloves stuffed under the front pads. Saw with my own eyes as the new farrier pulled the existing shoes and pads. We both looked at it and said, “Weird. There was only supposed to be magic cushion in there.”

Hypothetical was probably the wrong word to use. We can just say “I’m asking about this for a friend…”

There is no bill padding or financial malfeasance concerns by either the new farrier or the old one. As far as evaluating a shoeing job, I’m pretty knowledgeable. The balance was good, mechanics were good, etc. There were a few small details that seemed like the old farrier rushed things… the backs of the shoes could have, and ideally should have, been ground off some more than they were. But overall, not a bad job.

Nobody in this hypothetical/asking for a friend scenario is crazy pants, or a jerk. But… the farrier who left the latex gloves under the pads is a top tier, high demand, high performance type. There is a concern about insulting him professionally by questioning his work. It’s very unlikely the trainer will switch the rest of the barn over this one incident… so it’s one of those situations where maybe it’s best to just let the trainer and other clients manage their own animals how they want, and my hypothetical friend can possibly try a new farrier for her horse when it returns there for full training.

The main concern/thought is that this particular horse is not one of the top tier performance horses in the training barn… and perhaps the farrier and trainer and barn staff aren’t being quite as vigilant with this horse’s care, and this was just a simple mistake. But… the thought is that if that is the case, maybe it’s better for the client to more closely manage her own horse going forward… as she does want to continue with this trainer after the summer.

The trainer isn’t going to mind one way or another who the client chooses to use as a farrier, but the trainer will prefer that things be handled in a ‘low drama’ way.

I hope all that makes sense.

[Scribbler]

Ok not hypothetical.

Why not just ask about the gloves? I was imagining a scrunched up glove jammed in there but using a flat piece of glove as a barrier against the sole could make sense

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

It was essentially a scrunched up glove jammed up against the sole. And there was barely any magic cushion…

The only concern with asking about it is insulting the farm farrier who did that job. To me… it looked like the job was rushed and a mistake was made or something. But maybe I am wrong to assume this, and it’s a common thing to just stuff the latex glove under the front pads with hoof packing, and no big deal.

It looked less than ideal when the shoes were pulled, and seemed like it could create uneven pressure on the sole… but that’s just my amateur opinion .

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Heinz_57

If owner wants to continue using glove-using farrier, IIWM I would non-confrontationally ask about the gloves in a I’ve-never-heard-of-that-before way. Looking for information, with an open mind, non-accusatory.

That’s a helpful suggestion. The owner is on the fence about continuing to use that farrier.

[Scribbler]

This isn’t the kind of thing you do by mistake.

Does the top farrier do all the horses or does he have an assistant?

And for me, needing pads means there’s a pathology it might be worth getting under control too.

[Heinz_57]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

It was essentially a scrunched up glove jammed up against the sole. And there was barely any magic cushion…

Maybe trying to cut corners on material cost then, using the glove as a space filler with a little MC on top? Or he ran out of MC? Magic Cushion certainly isn’t cheap, although I think it’s cheaper per foot than most other packing options. I was envisioning the glove laid flat, but if it’s wadded up that doesn’t fit my barrier theory. Unless it’s stuffed into the collateral grooves or something.

Either way, I’d be curious to know the intended purpose of the gloves, because I really have never heard of that before. I have never come across a farrier who gets offended by my asking educational questions, but I’ve also never been in a situation where I wasn’t the one having direct contact with said farrier.

[beowulf]

If it were me I would just ask the farrier directly. I am guessing he stretched out the end of the glove flat, to try to keep the MC up against the sole. I have had a few horses with full pads and MC now and after a full cycle they never have much MC left, if any at all - I’d assume this was the farrier’s attempt to maximize the MC’s effect up against the hoof and to prevent much wastage.

You never know unless you ask. I’d do so in curious way, with an open mind as another poster said.

[dmveventer]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

The main concern/thought is that this particular horse is not one of the top tier performance horses in the training barn… and perhaps the farrier and trainer and barn staff aren’t being quite as vigilant with this horse’s care, and this was just a simple mistake. But… the thought is that if that is the case, maybe it’s better for the client to more closely manage her own horse going forward… as she does want to continue with this trainer after the summer.

The trainer isn’t going to mind one way or another who the client chooses to use as a farrier, but the trainer will prefer that things be handled in a ‘low drama’ way.

I would definitely mention it to the trainer, probably before going to the farrier. Either they’re aware and have an answer for you, or they’ll be as surprised as you are and may follow up with the farrier themselves. Both outcomes spare the client an awkward conversation with the farrier. I guess it’s possible that the trainer wouldn’t care at all but what you’re describing is weird enough that I’d think any competent trainer would want to get to the bottom of it. No hoof no horse, and all that. I’d definitely be skeptical of a trainer that just brushed something like that off completely. I wouldn’t read into anything about the horse being less important than others, it’s just as likely that no one (or at least no one knowledgeable) directly supervises the farrier while he works. If the hooves look normal from the outside and there aren’t any unsoundness issues the staff may have no idea this is happening.

I think you’re overcomplicating the situation with the hypotheticals and the suspected motives. Approach everyone like rational adults until they give you a reason to do otherwise. Don’t worry about insulting the farrier, or causing drama for the trainer, or whose horse is more important, etc. You (your friend?) are paying for a service and it’s totally reasonable to ask a polite question about how it was done. As others have said, approach it with an open mind and be willing to listen. Any professional worth his salt should be willing to explain the methods he’s using, especially something unorthodox like that, and if either professional views asking the question as “drama” then I would re-evaluate whether that was a program I trusted with my horse.

[endlessclimb]

I’m with @beowulf. Just ask him/her. “Hey, what’s the purpose of the gloves under the pad?” I’m guessing he has a pretty good reason.

[LCDR]

Ran out of hoof packing and had a box of gloves on board, so he improvised would be my guess. That might be OK as a one time deal, but the real problem is no communication from farrier to trainer about the situation.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Thanks for this response.

You definitely have a point about lack of close supervision with the farrier. But that is somewhat normal, in my experience. Sometimes working students hold horses, or horses are quiet enough to stand in cross ties. And in a busy barn, the farrier is focused on working through the list and everyone is just juggling to make sure rides get done, shoeing gets done, etc.

Stuff happens. It just seems a little weird. I admittedly also posted to see if anyone else would pop up to say that they had seen gloves included with the hoof packing under pads, and how it wasn’t uncommon or something. I guess that’s a possibility.

[S1969]

@Scribbler

Why not just ask about the gloves? I was imagining a scrunched up glove jammed in there but using a flat piece of glove as a barrier against the sole could make sense

Yeah, I’d probably ask.

I mean, if it could be made even, the idea of something like latex as a padding is kind of a good idea. My farrier still uses pine tar as padding under pads on my mare and will mix it with oakum to get the right consistency. He finds that it’s a little softer than magic cushion and a lot less messy.

But maybe this farrier had a situation where it was accidental (e.g. stuck in the magic cushion) and a client reported that the horse “never moved better!” and tried it?

I’d definitely not get rid of a good farrier over hoof packing – no matter what, there is a horse out there that will hate some kind of packing, while another one loves it. We tried some kind of pour in pad exactly once on my sensitive mare. I think we had to pull her shoes before a week was out.

[Bonnie2]

Was the horse sound with the latex gloves?